The Annotated LOTR - The King of the Golden Hall

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Postby ArPharazon » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:10 am

While we await Ted and Jonathan's ruling on whether the Annoated LOTR project can proceed in full, I think we can still make progress, learn and have some fun.<BR><BR>So, this thread is intended as an experiment in a group annotating a chapter of LOTR. It is open to ANYONE to contribute.<BR><BR>The Chapter in question is Book III Chapter 6: <strong><u>"The King of the Golden Hall"</u></strong><BR><BR>I have chosen this partly in tribute to LadyAshley's original post which inspired the project, and partly because it is a chapter with, I think, much to note and seek sources for.<BR><BR>I have reserved the first three posts so that I can edited annotations into them, as the collected summary.<BR><BR>Please feel free to add contributions as separate posts in the usual way, in any order. I see no reason why comments on contributions should not also be made in this thread. Please use the main "Annotated LOTR" thread for discussions on the overall project and how lessons might be learned.<BR><BR>Let's see how we get on. If this proves an impractical way of working we can perhaps set up the full project (assuming it is approved) in a different way. If it works, we known we can proceed with confidence. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>I'll make it clear at the outset that I don't think we want, and should avoid, SPECULATIVE commentary or interpretation by individual TORCers. That is standard VTSG fare. On the other hand commentary or interpretation of chapters, imagery or particular passages by professionals such as Shippey, might be appropriate. I would also encourage insights into meanings, symbolism and relevance etc, where these can be backed up by strong arguments, especially arguments based on Tolkien's other writings (eg LETTERS).<BR><BR>I suggested elsewhere that annotation material might include:<BR><BR>* specific parallel source material (like the Horse and Rider stuff in a post below)<BR>* explanation of imagery - where not clear<BR>* perhaps links to illustrations of particular passages by various artists<BR>* detailed comments on arms, armour, archietecture etc, and real world parallels <BR>* explanations of, and sources (if relevent) of names of people and places<BR>* identification of sources of tales<BR>* comments on language<BR>* cross references for instance between a prophecy (Boromir's dream) and where it becomes reality in the book - and other similar foreshadowings<BR>* links to additional detail in the appendices, HoME, LETTERS or UT etc<BR>* cross references to explanations by Tolkien of events such as Gandalf's death<BR><BR>Please contribute - and remember - every little helps!!<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>ArPhy<BR><BR>NOTE - I am happy to amend this initial post in any way. Please post views in <a href='http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?start=0&catid=27&threadid=77724' target=_blank>the main ANNOTATED LOTR thread</a>.
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Postby ArPharazon » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:12 am

[Book III Chapter 6: "The King of the Golden Hall"

Dawn came clear and bright - According to the chronology in Appendix B, it is the morning of March 2. Frodo, Sam, and Gollum are coming to the end of the Dead Marshes.

The light of it shines far over the land. - Tolkien is directly translating line 311 of Beowulf - líxte se léoma ofer landa fela

…inward they glimpsed a tumbled mountain-mass with one tall peak - The Starkhorn.

…there flowed, as a thread of silver, the stream that issued from the dale. - the river Snowbourn. A Modernised form of Rohan (that is, Old English) snâwburna. (from "The Guide to Names in 'The Lord of the Rings'" ).

Edoras those courts are called - OE edoras 'the courts' (Appendix F) or 'enclosures' (Shippey, The Road to Middle-earth).

There men in bright mail stand - Tolkien, in Letter 211, describes the Rohirrim as being like the figures in the Bayeux Tapestry. The figures on the tapestry are shown wearing knee-length mail, and wearing conical helmets with nose-guards.

Bayeux Tapestry link

The styles of the Bayeux Tapestry (made in England) fit them well enough, if one remembers that the kind of tennis-nets [the] soldiers seem to have on are only a clumsy conventional sign for chain-mail of small rings. (Letter 211)


Where now the horse and the rider? The poem recited by Aragorn, recalls this original:

Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago? Hwær cwom maþþumgyfa?
Hwær cwom symbla gesetu? Hwær sindon seledreamas?
Eala beorht bune! Eala byrnwiga!
Eala þeodnes þrym! Hu seo þrag gewat,
genap under nihthelm, swa heo no wære.
Stondeð nu on laste leofre duguþe
weal wundrum heah, wyrmlicum fah.
Eorlas fornoman asca þryþe,
wæpen wælgifru, wyrd seo mære,
ond þas stanhleoþu stormas cnyssað,
hrið hreosende hrusan bindeð,
wintres woma, þonne won cymeð,
nipeð nihtscua, norþan onsendeð
hreo hæglfare hæleþum on andan


Which might be translated as:

Where has the horse gone? Where the young warrior? Where is the giver of treasure? What has become of the feasting seats? Where are the joys of the hall? Alas, the bright cup! Alas, the mailed warrior! Alas, the prince’s glory! How that time has gone, vanished beneath night’s cover, just as if it never had been! The wall, wondrous high, decorated with snake-likenesses, stands now over traces of the beloved company. The ash-spears’ might has borne the earls away—weapons greedy for slaughter, Fate the mighty; and storms beat on the stone walls, snow, the herald of winter, falling thick binds the earth when darkness comes and the night-shadow falls, sends harsh hailstones from the north in hatred of men. All earth’s kingdom is wretched, the world beneath the skies is changed by the work of the fates. Here wealth is fleeting, here friend is fleeting, here man is fleeting, here woman is fleeting—all this earthly habitation shall be emptied.

Aragorn mentions Eorl The Young The Rohirrim often refer to themselves as 'Eorlingas.' This is in honor of Eorl the Young, the first lord of their people, who lived from 2485 to 2545 of the Third Age, in Gondorian reckoning.

Aragorn, also mentions Eorl's horse Felaróf. Felaróf was the first of the line of the horses known as mearas (of which Shadowfax is one) to be tamed. When Eorl was sixteen, his father Léod tried to ride a wild white horse he had captured; the horse bucked him off and he died. Eorl vowed revenge upon the horse, but instead of killing it, he deprived it of its freedom by mysteriously taming it. He named the horse Felaróf, and from that time on, the mearas would permit only the Rohirrim kings or princes to ride them, with Shadowfax as the sole exception. ( Appendix A, Part II.)

Meduseld is a Beowulfian word (line 3065) for `hall'. (cited from Shippey, “The Road to Middle Earth“.)

There dwells Theoden son of Thengel . - Thengel: 2902-2980 T.A.,16th King of the Mark, son of Fengel, and grandson of Folcwine. Wedded Morwen of Lossarnach in Gondor (2943 T.A), who bore him 2 daughters and 1 son in Gondor. Thengel returned unwillingly when the Rohirrim called for him after King Fengel's death (2953 T.A.). (ROTK, Appendix A II )

King of the Mark of Rohan - The Saxon kingdom which covered the 'Midlands' of England was called Mercia, which is a Latin name. The Saxons of the adjacent kngdom, Wessex, called them Mierce which, according to Shippey, would have been Mearc in the 'Mercian' tongue, pronounced 'Mark' (see T A Shippey, The Road to Middle Earth, Unwin, 1st Ed pp93-94).

That, I guess, is the language of the Rohirrim…,' - the Rohirrim are represented as recent comers out of the North, and users of an archaic Mannish language relatively untouched by the influence of Eldarin (Letter #144)

While the speech of the Men of Rohan, who came out of the North, and still among themselves used their ancestral language (though all their greater folk spoke also the Common Speech after the manner of their allies in Gondor), I have represented by ancient English, such as it was a thousand years ago, or as far back from us about as was the day of Eorl the Young from Theoden of Rohan. (HoME XII, Peoples of Middle-earth, The Appendix on Languages.

Tolkien wished to characterise the speech and, to some extent the society and customs, of the Rohirrim, as "feeling" about a thousand years older than that of Gondor. Having translated the "Common Speech" of Gondor and Middle-earth into modern English, it followed that the native tongue of the Rohirrim should be translated into "thousand-year-old" English, or, Old English. Thus their speech is redolent of the mead-halls and fields of battle of Old English poetry such as Beowulf. [Editor]

Seven mounds upon the left, and nine upon the right. - As Gandalf says these are the burial mounds housing the tombs of the Kings of Rohan. They are divided into two groups because after the death of Helm Hammerhand, the 9th king, the direct line was broken and his nephew Fréaláf became king. See the list of the Kings of Rohan in Appendix A II: The House of Eorl, pp 1042-1045.

The nine are those of the First Line, commencing with Eorl the Young and ending with Helm Hammerhand, who died in 2759. One son, Haleth, died defending the doors of Meduseld against the traitor Wulf in 2758, the other Hama was lsot in the snow of the Long Winter of 2759. The throne passed to Helm's nephew Frealaf, and a new line of barrows was begun, the last being that of Thengel, sixteenth King of Rohan.

Symbelmynë - Gandalf speaks of the "small flowers... like countless stars," calling them Symbelmynë, and mentioning that they "grow where dead men rest." It could be helpful to cite Appendix A, Part II here (again), where we learn that ever since Helm Hammerhand was buried in the ninth mound, "the symbelmynë grew there most thickly, so that the mound seemed to be snow-clad."

… those who come from Mundburg in the land of Gondor. - Mundburg is the Rohirric name for Minas Tirith. It is a straightforward rendering in Old English of the Sindarin name, which means "Tower of Guard." Mund "protection," burg "fortress." Mund also appears in the name of Eomer's father Eomund, "Horse-protector."

In this elvish sheath dwells the Blade that was broken and has been made again.Telchar first wrought it in the deeps of time. - The scabbard is Galadriel's gift to Aragron on the departure from Lothlorien (see Collins Modern Classic Edition p365).

Telchar is describe in the Silmarillion as the most renowned of the dwarven smiths of Nogrod, who themselves are the greatest of the Dwarven craftsmen (see Chapter 10: Of the Sindar). Telchar also forged the knife Angrist, with which Beren cut the Silmaril from Morgoth's iron crown (see Chapter 19 Of Beren and Luthien).

Tolkien's description of Meduseldis based on contemporary reconstructions of what the hall of a Dark Age Germanic chieftain would have been like - e.g, Hygelac's Herorot in Beowulf. This is made explicit in the author's 1958 letter to Forrest Ackerman commenting on the Zimmerman film "treatment":

We pass now to a dwelling of Men in an "heroic age." * * * * In such a time private chambers played no part. Theoden probably had none, unless he had a sleeping "bower" in a separate small "outhouse." He received guests or emissaries, seated on the dais in his royal hall. (Letter No. 210 in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Humphrey Carpenter ed., at 275-76, Houghton Mifflin 1981).

The lord's retainers would have slept all together in the great hall, with each man having his own assigned space in which to unroll his bedclothes.

But here and there bright sunbeams fell in glimmering shafts from the eastern windows, high under the deep eaves. - JRRT explained that, Though I have somewhat enriched the culture of the 'heroic' Rohirrim, it did not run to glass windows that could be thrown open ! ! We might be in a hotel. (The 'east windows' of the hall, II 116, 119, were slits under the eaves, unglazed.) (Letter 210 )



Upon it sat a man so bent with age that he seemed almost a dwarf… - Theoden was born in T.A. 2948. Thus he is either 70 or 71 years old at this point. (LOTR Appendix B)


It is not yet five days since the bitter tidings came that Theodred your son was slain… - Tolkien elaborates on Theodred's character, and gave details of his death in Unfinished Tales, Chapter V, Part Three, (pp. 371-90 of the 1988 Ballantine paperback edition.

"Theodred" means "counsel of the people" in Old English. "-red" meaning "counsel" is a common second element in OE names; e.g. Aelfred "Elf-counsel," Aethelred "Noble-counsel."

Second Marshal of the Mark - Marshal of the Mark (or Riddermark) was the highest military rank and the title of the King's lieutenants (originally three), commanders of the royal forces of fully equipped and trained Riders. The First Marshal's ward was the capital, Edoras, and the adjacent King's Lands (including Harrowdale). The Second and Third Marshals were assigned commands according to the needs of the time. [T]he Second Marshal, the King's son Théodred, had command over the West-mark with his base at Helm's Deep. ('The Battles of the Fords of Isen', Unfinished Tales., first Appendix.).
During this time, there was no First Marshall, the office being filled by Theoden, while Eomer was Third Marshall.

Lath spell - Lathspell is an antonym of godspell (Good News, from which "gospel" is derived).

Grima - Old English for "mask" or "secret"; Gríma was the son of Gálmód (OE 'lewd' or 'wanton' (tolkiensociety.org rather splendidly translates [Gálmód] as "a mind fit for the gallows" ). Grima represents a standard type: the evil counsellor of the king or lord.". There is a similar character in Beowulf:
Unferth, Ecglaf's son,
who sat at the feet
of the king of the Danes,
spoke, unloosing a battle-rune
(The bravery of Beowulf
was a vexation to him
because he envied any man
on this middle-earth who had
more glory than himself)

(The name <> means 'not-faithful, untrue', as suitable a name for a jealous deceiver.)

'wormtongue' = 'serpent-tongue' or 'dragon-tongue' 13th-century Icelandic saga of Gunnlaug Wormtongue, a bitingly satiric skald.

Hail Theoden, King of the Mark!
Literally, "theoden" means "one belonging to the people." However, like all the names of the Kings of Rohan, "Theoden" means "King" or "Lord" in Old English. It is found for example in the final chapter of Beowulf, which describes the hero's funeral:
(Him ða gegiredan Geata leode
ad on eorðan unwaclicne,
helmum behongen, hildebordum,
beorhtum byrnum, swa he bena wæs;
alegdon ða tomiddes mærne þeoden
hæleð hiofende, hlaford leofne
(Full Text)

(In Modern English:

Then fashioned for him the folk of Geats
firm on the earth a funeral-pile,
and hung it with helmets and harness of war
and breastplates bright, as the boon he asked;
and they laid amid it the mighty chieftain,
heroes mourning their master dear.
(Translated by Francis B. Gummere for the Harvard Classics, 1910.)

Arise now, arise, Riders of Theoden!
Dire deeds awake, dark is it eastward.
Let horse be bridled, horn be sounded!


Like all the verse attributed to the Rohirrim, these lines are written in the old Germanic alliterative meter. In this verse form, each line is divided into two half-lines, with two stressed syllables in each. To put it simply, the initial sounds of the first stressed syllable in each half line must be the same (alliterate); the initial sound of the second stressed syllable in the first half line may alliterate with these two; the second stressed syllable in the second half line never alliterates. Any vowel may alliterate with any other.

The alliteration in the quoted lines is as follows:

ARISE now, aRISE,/RIders of THEoden!
{B]D[/b]IRE deeds aWAKE,/DARK is it EASTward.
Let HORSE be BRIDled,/HORN be SOUNDed.

The French influence brought to England by the Norman Conquest caused alliteration to be replaced by rhyme as the organizing principle of verse - in the literary culture surrounding the court and the capital, that is. In the north, away from London, the alliterative tradition survived into the fourteenth century, and Piers Plowman and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, two of the best-known Middle English poems, are written in alliterative verse (though Gawain also uses rhyme). This regional difference was alluded to by Chaucer in the Canterbury Tales, where he has the Parson say:

But trusteth wel, I am a southern man.
I kan nat geeste 'rum, ram, ruf,' by lettre.

As said before, Rohirric verse like Old English verse always alliterates, including presumably the original of "Where is the horse and the rider," which Aragorn must have converted to rhyme in the translation. (So also is the Prophecy of Malbeth, which is hard to account for in the framework of the story.)




You have my pity… - Pity is a recurring theme; cf. Gandalf in Book I, Chapter 2.

Westu Theoden hal! - means: "Be thou, Theoden, hale."

Ferthu Theoden hal! - means: "Fare thou, Theoden, well."

And he looked down upon her fair face and smiled; but as he took the cup, his hand met hers, and he knew that she trembled at the touch. - Compare the following passages from Heimskringla the legendary history of the kings of Norway written by the Icelander Snorri Sturluson in the thirteenth century:

The same summer King Hjorvard, who was called Ylfing, came with his fleet to Sweden, and went into a fjord called Myrkva-fjord. When King Granmar heard this he sent a messenger to him to invite him and all his men to a feast.* * * King Hjorvard's high seat was placed right opposite to King Granmar's high seat, and on the same bench sat all his men. King Granmar told his daughter Hildigunn, who was a remarkably beautiful girl, to make ready to carry ale to the vikings. Thereupon she took a silver goblet, filled it, bowed before King Hjorvard, and said, "Success to all Ylfinger: this cup to the memory of Rolf Krake" -- drank out the half, and handed the cup to King Hjorvard. He took the cup, and took her hand, and said she must sit beside him. She says that is not viking fashion to drink two and two with women. Hjorvard replies that it were better for him to make a change, and leave the viking law, and drink in company with her. Then Hildigunn sat down beside him, and both drank together, and spoke a great deal with each other during the evening. The next day, when King Granmar and Hjorvard met, Hjorvard spoke of his courtship, and asked to have Hildigunn in marriage. (Ynglinga saga, part 41, translated by Samuel Laing (London, 1844). Full Text

The Old Norse text:

Það sama sumar kemur liði sínu Hjörvarður konungur er Ylfingur var kallaður til Svíþjóðar og lagði í fjörð þann er Myrkvafjörður heitir. En er Granmar konungur spyr það sendir hann menn til hans og býður honum til veislu og öllu liði hans. * * * Hásæti Hjörvarðs konungs var búið gagnvart hásæti Granmars konungs og sátu allir hans menn á þann pall. Þá mælti Granmar konungur við Hildigunni dóttur sína að hún skyldi búa sig og bera öl víkingum. Hún var allra kvinna fríðust. Þá tók hún silfurkálk einn og fyllti og gekk fyrir Hjörvarð konung og mælti: "Allir heilir Ylfingar að Hrólfs minni kraka" og drakk af til hálfs og seldi Hjörvarði konungi. Nú tók hann kálkinn og hönd hennar með og mælti að hún skyldi ganga að sitja hjá honum. Hún sagði það ekki víkinga sið að drekka hjá konum tvímenning. Hjörvarður lét þess vera meiri von að hann mundi það skipti á gera að láta heldur víkingalögin og drekka tvímenning við hana. Þá settist Hildigunnur hjá honum og drukku þau bæði saman og töluðu mart um kveldið. Eftir um daginn er þeir konungar hittust Granmar og Hjörvarður þá hóf Hjörvarður upp bónorð sitt og bað Hildigunnar. {Full Text

The second incident is attributed to Harald Fairhair, the first King of united Norway:

King Harald, one winter, went about in guest-quarters in the Uplands, and had ordered a Christmas feast to be prepared for him at the farm Thoptar. On Christmas eve came Svase to the door, just as the king went to table, and sent a message to the king to ask if he would go out with him. The king was angry at such a message, and the man who had brought it in took out with him a reply of the king's displeasure. But Svase, notwithstanding, desired that his message should be delivered a second time; adding to it, that he was the Fin whose hut the king had promised to visit, and which stood on the other side of the ridge. Now the king went out, and promised to go with him, and went over the ridge to his hut, although some of his men dissuaded him. There stood Snaefrid, the daughter of Svase, a most beautiful girl; and she filled a cup of mead for the king. But he took hold both of the cup and of her hand. Immediately it was as if a hot fire went through his body; and he wanted that very night to take her to his bed. But Svase said that should not be unless by main force, if he did not first make her his lawful wife. Now King Harald made Snaefrid his lawful wife, and loved her so passionately that he forgot his kingdom, and all that belonged to his high dignity.(Haraldar saga harfagra, part 25, translated by Samuel Laing, London, 1844). Full Text

The Old Norse:

Haraldur konungur fór einn vetur að veislum um Upplönd og lét búa sér til jólaveislu á Þoptum. Jólaftan kom Svási fyrir dyr þá er konungur sat yfir borði og sendi konungi boð að hann skyldi út ganga til hans. En konungur brást reiður við þeim sendiboðum og bar hinn sami maður reiði konungs út sem honum hafði borið inn boðin. En Svási bað bera eigi að síður annað sinn erindið og kvað sig vera þann Finninn er konungur hafði játað að setja gamma sinn annan veg brekkunnar þar. En konungur gekk út og varð honum þess játsi, að fara heim með honum, og gekk yfir brekkuna með áeggjan sumra sinna manna þótt sumir lettu. Þar stóð upp Snæfríður dóttir Svása, kvinna fríðust, og byrlaði konungi ker fullt mjaðar en hann tók allt saman og hönd hennar og þegar var sem pickle jars kæmi í hörund hans og vildi þegar hafa samræði við hana á þeirri nótt. En Svási sagði að það mundi eigi vera nema að honum nauðgum nema konungur festi hana og fengi að lögum en konungur festi Snæfríði og fékk og unni svo með ærslum að ríki sitt og allt það er honum byrjaði, þá fyrirlét hann.

http://www.snerpa.is/net/snorri/har-har.htm

Tolkien was very well read in Old Norse, and certainly would have known Heimskringla.

B]Well do I understand you speech.[/b] - Aragorn had been in Rohan before when he served under King Thengel (pp 1035, 1064??).


Gimli needed no armor… - Gimli's wearing a coat of mail is mentioned in 'The Ring Goes South' (p. 272) but this is the first time he acquires a helmet and shield.

in the wet meads and along the grassy borders of the stream grew many willow-trees. Meads is an archaic word for 'meadows' (from the OE mæd via the Middle English mede).

wet meads probably refer to 'wet meadows', low lying fields that are flooded during winter and drained in late winter or early Spring. Water tolerant plants such as reeds, sedge and willows are commonly found in and along such fields. Used in medieval England for common pasturage; the water cover prevented the soil from freezing, so, following draining, grasses would grow a few weeks earlier than the higher, drier fields. This allowed herds to graze in these fields before winter stockfeed was exhausted.

[FOR POSSIBLE USE IN AN EARLIER CHAPTER]

The Rohirrim call themselves the Eotheod (Old English eoh=`horse'+ peod=`people'); this translates into Common Speech as `the Riders'; Rohan itself is Sindarin for `horse-country'. Prominent Riders call themselves after horses (Eomund, Eomer, Eowyn), and their most important title after `King' is `marshall', borrowed into English from French but going back to an unrecorded Germanic *marho-skalkoz, `horse-servant' (and cp. the name of the hobbits' Hengest).

[NOT SURE HOW TO HANDLE THIS YET??]
There is another Beowulf parallel. Here is the greeting Beowulf receives from the Danish coast-guard:

Shaking a mighty spear, he spoke:
"Who are you, in armor,
who come over the sea-road
in that steep keel?
Listen: I guard here
so that no forces
hostile to the Danes
may raid. Never has
one so openly brought
a ship's army, warriors,
without the permission of my kinsmen.
And never have I seen
a greater man on earth,
any man in armor,
than is one among you.
Unless I'm wrong,
that is no hall-man,
just wearing armor--
his stature is peerless.
I wish to know your lineage now
so I know you are not spies
going into the land of the Danes.
You far-dwellers, seafarers,
hear my simple thought:
you had best hurry to tell me
where you come from."

Here is the guard's greeting to Aragorn & Co at Edoras:

Who are you that come heedless over the plain thus strangely clad, riding horses like to our own horses? Long have we kept guard here, and we have watched you from afar. Never have we seen other riders so strange, nor any horse more proud than is one of these that bear you.... Speak now and be swift!

There follows a dispute over the strangers being allowed to enter with their weapons. In both cases the guards decide to follow their own judgement. Beowulf:

The protector of the coast,
still on his horse, spoke
(a wise shield warrior,
one who thinks well,
must judge two things:
works and words):
"I see that you are a band
friendly to the lord of the Danes.
Go forth, bearing arms and equipment.
I will guide you..

Not dissimilar to Hama with Gandalf:

"Yet in doubt a man of worth will trust to his own wisdom. I believe you are friends and folk worthy of honour, who have no evil purpose. You may go in."
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Postby ArPharazon » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:13 am

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Postby ArPharazon » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:14 am

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Postby ArPharazon » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:16 am

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Postby ArPharazon » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:19 am

In another thread LadyAshley summised that the poem:<BR><BR><i>"Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?<BR>Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing?<BR>Where is the hand on the harpstring, and the red fire glowing?<BR>Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing?<BR>They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow;<BR>The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow.<BR>Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning,<BR>Or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning?</i><BR><BR>might be based on this original:<BR><BR><b>Where has the horse gone? Where the young warrior? Where is the giver of treasure? What has become of the feasting seats? Where are the joys of the hall? Alas, the bright cup! Alas, the mailed warrior! Alas, the prince’s glory! How that time has gone, vanished beneath night’s cover, just as if it never had been! The wall, wondrous high, decorated with snake-likenesses, stands now over traces of the beloved company. The ash-spears’ might has borne the earls away—weapons greedy for slaughter, Fate the mighty; and storms beat on the stone walls, snow, the herald of winter, falling thick binds the earth when darkness comes and the night-shadow falls, sends harsh hailstones from the north in hatred of men. All earth’s kingdom is wretched, the world beneath the skies is changed by the work of the fates. Here wealth is fleeting, here friend is fleeting, here man is fleeting, here woman is fleeting—all this earthly habitation shall be emptied.</b><BR><BR>roacarcsson found the Old English text online. Here is most of it (he couldn't remember where Lady A. had ended).<BR><BR>Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago? Hwær cwom maþþumgyfa?<BR>Hwær cwom symbla gesetu? Hwær sindon seledreamas? <BR>Eala beorht bune! Eala byrnwiga! <BR>Eala þeodnes þrym! Hu seo þrag gewat, <BR>genap under nihthelm, swa heo no wære. <BR>Stondeð nu on laste leofre duguþe <BR>weal wundrum heah, wyrmlicum fah. <BR>Eorlas fornoman asca þryþe, <BR>wæpen wælgifru, wyrd seo mære, <BR>ond þas stanhleoþu stormas cnyssað, <BR>hrið hreosende hrusan bindeð, <BR>wintres woma, þonne won cymeð, <BR>nipeð nihtscua, norþan onsendeð <BR>hreo hæglfare hæleþum on andan<BR><BR>Do roac or Lady A have sources for these quotes please??
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Postby Aravar » Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:02 pm

Here goes:<BR><BR>'There dwells Theoden son of Thengel King of the Mark of Rohan.'<BR><BR>The Saxon kingdom which covered the 'Midlands' of England was called Mercia, which is a Latin name. The Saxons of the adjacent kngdom, Wessex, called them Mierce which, according to Shippey, would have been Mearc in the 'Mercian' tongue, pronounced 'Mark' (see T A Shippey, The Road to Middle Earth, Unwin, 1st Ed pp93-94). This reflects the use by Tolkien of Anglo-Saxon to represent the Rohirric tongue in his 'translation'.<BR>
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Postby wilko185 » Fri Feb 20, 2004 1:36 pm

A quick one on the same theme from Shippey: when Legolas says of the thatched golden roof of Meduseld:<OL>"The light of it shines far over the land"</OL>he is directly translating line 311 of Beowulf<OL><i>líxte se léoma ofer landa fela</i></OL>
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Postby ArPharazon » Fri Feb 20, 2004 1:42 pm

And so they come!!<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Thanks, Aravar, thanks, Wilko.<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
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Postby Maer-Manadh » Fri Feb 20, 2004 1:56 pm

Humph. Wilko, that's the only one I know. I have a lot of stuff for the end of the Two Towers, with the Crossroads and Shelob and stuff.
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Postby Nár » Fri Feb 20, 2004 1:59 pm

Two brief notes<BR><BR>-The line "White is the star in your white hand" in Gandalf's poem about Galadriel is a clear reference to Nenya, the Ring of Adamant. <BR><BR>"it glittered like polished gold overlaid with silver light, and a white stone in it twinkled as the Even-star had come down to rest upon her hand" <BR>( The Fellowship of the Ring, Book Two, Chapter VII)<BR><BR>- "Grima" is Old English for "mask" or "secret";<BR>
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Postby Silverfoot » Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:18 pm

Perhaps an obvious (to us, at least) statement but significant all the same:<BR><BR>The Rohirrim often refer to themselves as 'Eorlingas.' This is in honor of Eorl the Young, the first lord of their people, who lived from 2485 to 2545 of the Third Age, in Gondorian reckoning.<BR><BR>Also:<BR><BR>Aragorn, recounting the <i>Where now the horse and rider?</i> poem, mentions Eorl's horse Felaróf. Felaróf was the first of the line of the horses known as <i>mearas</i> (of which Shadowfax is one) to be tamed. When Eorl was sixteen, his father Léod tried to ride a wild white horse he had captured; the horse bucked him off and he died. Eorl vowed revenge upon the horse, but instead of killing it, he deprived it of its freedom by mysteriously taming it. He named the horse Felaróf, and from that time on, the <i>mearas</i> would permit only the Rohirrim kings or princes to ride them, with Shadowfax as the sole exception.<BR><BR>Both are from Appendix A, Part II.<BR><BR>Edited to say: Enough TORCers have graciously supported me in my Appendix-driven quest for annotation that I have (at least a little) confidence that these are permissible. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>
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Postby Silverfoot » Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:36 pm

It might also be pointed out that the Rohirrim name themselves and their country after horses:<BR><BR>"The Rohirrim call themselves the Eotheod (Old English eoh=`horse'+ peod=`people'); this translates into Common Speech as `the Riders'; Rohan itself is Sindarin for `horse-country'. Prominent Riders call themselves after horses (Eomund, Eomer, Eowyn), and their most important title after `King' is `marshall', borrowed into English from French but going back to an unrecorded Germanic *marho-skalkoz, `horse-servant' (and cp. the name of the hobbits' Hengest)."<BR><BR>And more relating to Beowulf:<BR><BR>"`Meduseld' is indeed a Beowulfian word (line 3065) for `hall'."<BR><BR>The above passages are cited from Shippey's book <i>The Road to Middle Earth</i>, but I actually took them from <a href='http://members.cts.com/king/e/erikt/tolkien/tolkien.htm' target=_blank>this</a> website.<BR><BR><img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"border=0> This is so much fun! (Even though I feel like I'm just using the research of others... *shrugs* At least I'm citing.)
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Postby Farawen » Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:02 pm

<i>There dwells Théoden son of Thengel, King of the Mark of Rohan."</i><BR><BR><b>Thengel</b>: 2902-2980 T.A.,16th King of the Mark, son of Fengel, and grandson of Folcwine. Wedded Morwen of Lossarnach in Gondor (2943 T.A), who bore him 2 daughters and 1 son in Gondor. Thengel returned unwillingly when the Rohirrim called for him after King Fengel's death (2953 T.A.). (ROTK, Appendix A II: "The Kings of the Mark" )<BR><BR><BR><i>'That, I guess, is the language of the Rohirrim,' said Legolas; 'for it is like to this land itself; rich and rolling in part, and else hard and stern as the mountains. But I cannot guess what it means, save that it is laden with the sadness of Mortal Men.'</i><BR><BR><b>The language of the Rohirrim</b>: <i>[...]the Rohirrim are represented as recent comers out of the North, and users of an archaic Mannish language relatively untouched by the influence of Eldarin[...] (Letter #144)</i><BR><BR><BR><i>Thus spoke a forgotten poet long ago in Rohan, recalling how tall and fair was Eorl the Young, who rode down out of the North;...</i><BR><BR><b>Eorl the Young</b>: see ROTK, Appendix A II: "The House of Eorl"; also UT: Part Three, II (ii) "The Ride of Eorl"<BR><BR><BR><i>'You have my pity,' said Théoden.</i><BR><BR><b>Pity</b>: a recurring theme; cf. Gandalf in Book I, Chapter 2: <i>'Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy; not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo.(...)'</i>
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Postby roaccarcsson » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:36 pm

<b>And he looked down upon her fair face and smiled; but as he took the cup, his hand met hers, and he knew that she trembled at the touch.</b><BR><BR>Compare the following passages from <i>Heimskringla</i> the legendary history of the kings of Norway written by the Icelander Snorri Sturluson in the thirteenth century:<BR><BR>The same summer King Hjorvard, who was called Ylfing, came with his fleet to Sweden, and went into a fjord called Myrkva-fjord. When King Granmar heard this he sent a messenger to him to invite him and all his men to a feast.* * * King Hjorvard's high seat was placed right opposite to King Granmar's high seat, and on the same bench sat all his men. King Granmar told his daughter Hildigunn, who was a remarkably beautiful girl, to make ready to carry ale to the vikings. Thereupon she took a silver goblet, filled it, bowed before King Hjorvard, and said, "Success to all Ylfinger: this cup to the memory of Rolf Krake" -- drank out the half, and handed the cup to King Hjorvard. He took the cup, and took her hand, and said she must sit beside him. She says that is not viking fashion to drink two and two with women. Hjorvard replies that it were better for him to make a change, and leave the viking law, and drink in company with her. Then Hildigunn sat down beside him, and both drank together, and spoke a great deal with each other during the evening. The next day, when King Granmar and Hjorvard met, Hjorvard spoke of his courtship, and asked to have Hildigunn in marriage.<BR><BR><i>Ynglinga saga</i>, part 41, translated by Samuel Laing (London, 1844). Full text at<BR><BR><a href='http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Heimskringla/ynglinga.html' target=_blank>http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Heimskringla/ynglinga.html</a><BR><BR>Here is the Old Norse text:<BR><BR>Það sama sumar kemur liði sínu Hjörvarður konungur er Ylfingur var kallaður til Svíþjóðar og lagði í fjörð þann er Myrkvafjörður heitir. En er Granmar konungur spyr það sendir hann menn til hans og býður honum til veislu og öllu liði hans. * * * Hásæti Hjörvarðs konungs var búið gagnvart hásæti Granmars konungs og sátu allir hans menn á þann pall. Þá mælti Granmar konungur við Hildigunni dóttur sína að hún skyldi búa sig og bera öl víkingum. Hún var allra kvinna fríðust. Þá tók hún silfurkálk einn og fyllti og gekk fyrir Hjörvarð konung og mælti: "Allir heilir Ylfingar að Hrólfs minni kraka" og drakk af til hálfs og seldi Hjörvarði konungi. Nú tók hann kálkinn og hönd hennar með og mælti að hún skyldi ganga að sitja hjá honum. Hún sagði það ekki víkinga sið að drekka hjá konum tvímenning. Hjörvarður lét þess vera meiri von að hann mundi það skipti á gera að láta heldur víkingalögin og drekka tvímenning við hana. Þá settist Hildigunnur hjá honum og drukku þau bæði saman og töluðu mart um kveldið. Eftir um daginn er þeir konungar hittust Granmar og Hjörvarður þá hóf Hjörvarður upp bónorð sitt og bað Hildigunnar.<BR><BR>Full text at<BR><a href='http://www.snerpa.is/net/snorri/yngl-sag.htm' target=_blank>http://www.snerpa.is/net/snorri/yngl-sag.htm</a><BR><BR>The second incident is attributed to Harald Fairhair, the first King of united Norway:<BR><BR>King Harald, one winter, went about in guest-quarters in the Uplands, and had ordered a Christmas feast to be prepared for him at the farm Thoptar. On Christmas eve came Svase to the door, just as the king went to table, and sent a message to the king to ask if he would go out with him. The king was angry at such a message, and the man who had brought it in took out with him a reply of the king's displeasure. But Svase, notwithstanding, desired that his message should be delivered a second time; adding to it, that he was the Fin whose hut the king had promised to visit, and which stood on the other side of the ridge. Now the king went out, and promised to go with him, and went over the ridge to his hut, although some of his men dissuaded him. There stood Snaefrid, the daughter of Svase, a most beautiful girl; and she filled a cup of mead for the king. But he took hold both of the cup and of her hand. Immediately it was as if a hot fire went through his body; and he wanted that very night to take her to his bed. But Svase said that should not be unless by main force, if he did not first make her his lawful wife. Now King Harald made Snaefrid his lawful wife, and loved her so passionately that he forgot his kingdom, and all that belonged to his high dignity.<BR><BR><i>Haraldar saga harfagra</i>, part 25, translated by Samuel Laing (London, 1844). Full text at<BR><BR><a href='http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Heimskringla/ynglinga.html' target=_blank>http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Heimskringla/ynglinga.html</a><BR><BR>The Old Norse:<BR><BR>Haraldur konungur fór einn vetur að veislum um Upplönd og lét búa sér til jólaveislu á Þoptum. Jólaftan kom Svási fyrir dyr þá er konungur sat yfir borði og sendi konungi boð að hann skyldi út ganga til hans. En konungur brást reiður við þeim sendiboðum og bar hinn sami maður reiði konungs út sem honum hafði borið inn boðin. En Svási bað bera eigi að síður annað sinn erindið og kvað sig vera þann Finninn er konungur hafði játað að setja gamma sinn annan veg brekkunnar þar. En konungur gekk út og varð honum þess játsi, að fara heim með honum, og gekk yfir brekkuna með áeggjan sumra sinna manna þótt sumir lettu. Þar stóð upp Snæfríður dóttir Svása, kvinna fríðust, og byrlaði konungi ker fullt mjaðar en hann tók allt saman og hönd hennar og þegar var sem pickle jars kæmi í hörund hans og vildi þegar hafa samræði við hana á þeirri nótt. En Svási sagði að það mundi eigi vera nema að honum nauðgum nema konungur festi hana og fengi að lögum en konungur festi Snæfríði og fékk og unni svo með ærslum að ríki sitt og allt það er honum byrjaði, þá fyrirlét hann. <BR><BR><a href='http://www.snerpa.is/net/snorri/har-har.htm' target=_blank>http://www.snerpa.is/net/snorri/har-har.htm</a><BR><BR>Tolkien was very well read in Old Norse, and certainly would have known <i>Heimskringla.</i>
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Postby roaccarcsson » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:40 pm

I think the Appendices are far grounds for annotation. For one thing, I gather that some foreign translations do not include them.
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Postby roaccarcsson » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:55 pm

Another.<BR><BR><b>"Hail Theoden, King of the Mark! I have returned."</b><BR><BR>Like all the names of the Kings of Rohan, "Theoden" means "King" or "Lord" in Old English. It is found for example in the final chapter of <i>Beowulf</i>, which describes the hero's funeral:<BR><BR>Him ða gegiredan Geata leode <BR>ad on eorðan unwaclicne, <BR>helmum behongen, hildebordum, <BR>beorhtum byrnum, swa he bena wæs; <BR>alegdon ða tomiddes mærne <b>þeoden</b><BR>hæleð hiofende, hlaford leofne<BR><BR>Text taken from<BR><a href='http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~beowulf/main.html' target=_blank>http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~beowulf/main.html</a><BR><BR>In Modern English:<BR><BR>Then fashioned for him the folk of Geats<BR>firm on the earth a funeral-pile,<BR>and hung it with helmets and harness of war<BR>and breastplates bright, as the boon he asked;<BR>and they laid amid it the mighty chieftain,<BR>heroes mourning their master dear.<BR><BR>Translated by Francis B. Gummere for the Harvard Classics, 1910. Public domain; available online at<BR><BR><a href='http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/beowulf.html' target=_blank>http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/beowulf.html</a><BR><BR>Literally, "theoden" means "one belonging to the people."<BR><BR>[Arguably, this note belongs in the Council of Elrond chapter, where Theoden is first named. It may be more useful to the reader at this point, however.]
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Postby roaccarcsson » Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:40 pm

It's like eating peanuts.<BR><BR><b>"It is not yet five days since the bitter tidings came that Theodred your son was slain upon the West Marches: your right hand, Second Marshal of the Mark."</b><BR><BR>Tolkien elaborated on Theodred's character, and gave details of his death at the Battle of the Fords of Isen, in a document written after the publication of LotR and published in <i>Unfinished Tales</i>. It is chapter V of Part Three, pp. 371-90 of the Ballantine paperback edition of 1988.<BR><BR>"Theodred" means "counsel of the people" in Old English. "-red" meaning "counsel" is a common second element in OE names; e.g. <i>Aelfred</i> "Elf-counsel," <i>Aethelred</i> "Noble-counsel."
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Postby roaccarcsson » Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:26 pm

<b><i>"Lathspell</i> I name you, Ill-news; and ill news is an ill guest they say."</b><BR><BR><i>Lathspell</i> is an antonym of <i>godspell</i> "Good News," from which "Gospel" is derived.
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Postby MithLuin » Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:08 pm

Another, to complement Roac's (second) most recent one:<BR><BR><strong>"It is not yet five days since the bitter tidings came that Theodred your son was slain upon the West Marches: your right hand, Second Marshal of the Mark."</strong><BR><BR><em>Marshal of the Mark (or Riddermark) was the highest military rank and the title of the King's lieutenants (originally three), commanders of the royal forces of fully equipped and trained Riders. The First Marshal's ward was the capital, Edoras, and the adjacent King's Lands (including Harrowdale). The Second and Third Marshals were assigned commands according to the needs of the time. [T]he Second Marshal, the King's son Théodred, had command over the West-mark with his base at Helm's Deep.</em><BR>'THE BATTLES OF THE FORDS OF ISEN', Unfinished Tales., first Appendix<BR><BR>During this time, there was no First Marshall, the office being filled by Theoden, while Eomer was Third Marshall.<BR><BR>I lifted this material from a post by Romestamo in the thread <em>How did the Rohirrim organise their armed forces? </em><BR><a href='messageview.cfm?catid=27&;threadid=77875' target=_blank>messageview.cfm?catid=27&;threadid=77875</a><BR><BR>This raises another question. Do we want to refer to large sections of other material, pull out relevant select quotes, or both? (ie, is this redundant?) The offices of the Marshall of the Mark could also be described earlier, when we first meet Eomer.<BR><BR>Edit: to fix link
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Postby MithLuin » Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:30 pm

Gandalf says to Grima: <strong>I have not passed through fire and death to bandy crooked words with a serving-man...</strong><BR><BR>In the First Edition, the words "fire and death" were missing; instead we see "fire and flood." The explanation for this change is found in Letter 156:<BR><em>Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no difference. 'I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death'. Probably he should rather have said to Wormtongue: 'I have not passed through death (not 'fire and flood') to bandy crooked words with a serving-man'...</em><BR>Tolkien wished to state explicitly that Gandalf had truly died in his confrontation with the Balrog.<BR><BR>(No, I do not have a copy of the First Edition!)<BR><BR>Edit: Oops! Almost forgot to credit my source! <em>Did Gandalf, in a sense, die?</em><BR><a href='messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=53973' target=_blank>messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=53973</a><BR><BR>Edit2: The meaning in this change would <em>not</em> be obvious unless Tolkien had specified it, nor would the change clarify Gandalf's death beyond doubt. The 'passed through fire and deep water' language is retained where Gandalf returns in 'The White Rider'. Aragorn still says 'he has passed through the fire and the abyss' later in the same chapter. The fact that Gandalf did, in fact, die is established when he says 'I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death' to Saruman in 'The Voice of Saruman.' The ambiguity of 'passed through fire and death' is seen when similar language is used with a very different meaning at the end of 'The Road to Isengard' by Gimli: 'Two hundred leagues, through fen and forest, battle and death, to rescue you.' <BR><BR>[And yes, I intend to insert annotations at all those points saying "See <strong>I have not passed through fire and death to bandy crooked words with a serving-man...</strong>"]
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Postby -Rómestámo- » Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:30 pm

[...] <i>inward they glimpsed a tumbled mountain-mass with one tall peak</i> [...]: The Starkhorn.<BR><BR>[...] <i>there flowed, as a thread of silver, the stream that issued from the dale</i>. [...]: the river <b>Snowbourn</b>. A Modernised form of Rohan (that is, Old English) <i>snâwburna</i>. (from "The Guide to Names in 'The Lord of the Rings'" ).<BR><BR><i>'Edoras those courts are called,'</i> : OE <i>edoras</i> 'the courts' (Appendix F) or 'enclosures' (Shippey, <i>The Road to Middle-earth</i>).
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Postby -Rómestámo- » Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:32 pm

Comments on Gríma have been previously posted in <a href='http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=76846#1' target=_blank>Who was Gríma?</a> [http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=76846#1]:<BR><BR><strong>wilko185</strong> gives us: <BR>Gríma (OE 'mask' or 'secret' ) was the son of Gálmód (OE 'lewd' or 'wanton' (<a href='http://www.tolkiensociety.org/media/Who_is_who.html' target=_blank>tolkiensociety.org</a> [http://www.tolkiensociety.org/media/Who_is_who.html] rather splendidly translates [Gálmód] as "a mind fit for the gallows" ). <BR><BR>'wormtongue' = 'serpent-tongue' or 'dragon-tongue' from the <a href='http://www.blackmask.com/books46c/gunnlaug.htm' target=_blank>13th-century Icelandic saga of Gunnlaug Wormtongue</a> [http://www.blackmask.com/books46c/gunnlaug.htm], a bitingly satiric skald.<BR><BR><strong>jallan</strong> notes "Grima in Tolkien represents a standard type: the evil counsellor of the king or lord.", <BR><BR><strong>Queen_Beruthiel</strong> notes that there is a similar character in <em>Beowulf</em>: <UL>Unferth, Ecglaf's son,<BR>who sat at the feet <BR>of the king of the Danes,<BR>spoke, unloosing a battle-rune<BR>(The bravery of Beowulf<BR>was a vexation to him<BR>because he envied any man <BR>on this middle-earth who had<BR>more glory than himself):</UL><strong>jallan</strong> adds <em>And the name <<Unferth>> means 'not-faithful, untrue', as suitable a name for a jealous deceiver.</em><BR><BR>Examination of the complete thread possibly offers other insights worth incorporating into the annotations.
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Postby MithLuin » Fri Feb 20, 2004 9:19 pm

I'm not sure if this material is worthy of an annotation. Feel free to reject it! Words that appear only once in a work are called <i>hapax legomena</i>, as is explained on the One Word Trivia thread:<BR><A TARGET="_blank" HREF="http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?start=0&">http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?start=0&</A>;catid=27&threadid=68756<BR><BR><b>'Here, lord, is Herugrim, your ancient blade,' he said. 'It was found in his chest...</b><BR>This is the only place where Theoden’s sword is named. <BR><b>"The wise speak only of what they know, Gríma, son of Gálmód."</b><BR>Only occurrence of the name of Gríma’s father<BR><b>Do you not remember how eagerly he urged that no man should be spared on a wildgoose chase northward, when the immediate peril was westward?</b><BR>Only occurrence of the word “wildgoose” in LotR<BR><b>'But your people must not be both unarmed and shepherdless,'</b> <BR>Only occurrence of the word “shepherdless”<BR><b>'And a Dwarf is no horseman. It is orc-necks I would hew, not shave the scalps of men,' said Gimli, patting the haft of his axe.</b> <BR>May be the only occurrence of the word “scalps”<BR><BR>And here is a possible discrepency between various editions: the word "froward" appears in some, while it is rendered "forward" in others.<BR>Theoden speaking of Eomer's froward tounge when recounting to Gandalf the reason he had put him under guard. He had rebelled and threatened Grima. [says "forward" in one edition I checked]<BR>
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Postby MithLuin » Fri Feb 20, 2004 9:31 pm

Eomer says: <b>"Westu Theoden hal!"</b><BR><BR>which means: "Be thou, Theoden, hale."<BR><BR>Eowyn says: <b>"Ferthu Theoden hal!"</b><BR><BR>which means: "Fare thou, Theoden, well."<BR><BR>source:<BR>Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 10:30:01 -0500<BR>To: Tolkien Language List <A HREF="mailto:<tolklang@dcs.ed.ac.uk"><tolklang@dcs.ed.ac.uk</A>><BR>From: "Carl F. Hostetter" <A HREF="mailto:<carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov"><carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov</A>><BR>Subject: Re: Khuzdul and Rohirric<BR><A TARGET="_blank" HREF="http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/messages/Vol10/10.95">http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/messages/Vol10/10.95</A><BR><BR>Alberto also asked for the meaning of the phrases "Westu Theoden hal!"<BR>and "Ferthu The'oden ha'l!", which are uttered by Eomer and Eowyn,<BR>respectively. They are both in Old English (the language Tolkien used<BR>in translation to represent Rohirric). The first is literally "Be thou,<BR>Theoden, hale" (cf. Modern English _wassail_, cognate with OE _wes hal_<BR>'be in good health'). The second is literally "Fare thou, Theoden, well".<BR><BR>Ha! That's official!
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Postby scirocco » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:54 pm

Excellent posts by all. (Although I think you've picked an easy one, with lots of obvious source material, Arphy!)<BR><BR>This chapter throws up an example where there needs to be a comment by the <i>Annotater</i> editor, simply because Tolkien's statement on the matter is not particularly clear. The case in point is <u>why</u> the Rohirrim speak Old English at all. Tolkien's own comment is:<BR><OL>While the speech of the Men of Rohan, who came out of the North, and still among themselves used their ancestral language (though all their greater folk spoke also the Common Speech after the manner of their allies in Gondor), I have represented by ancient English, such as it was a thousand years ago, or as far back from us about as was the day of Eorl the Young from Theoden of Rohan.<BR><BR>HoME XII, <i>Peoples of Middle-earth</i>, The Appendix on Languages.</OL><BR><BR>IMO, this complex statement, assuming quite a lot of prior knowledge, would lose a lot of people. In this case, I would suggest there is a need for an editorial comment such as this one that I've composed:<BR><BR><OL>Tolkien wished to characterise the speech and, to some extent the society and customs, of the Rohirrim, as "feeling" about a thousand years older than that of Gondor. Having translated the "Common Speech" of Gondor and Middle-earth into modern English, it followed that the native tongue of the Rohirrim should be translated into "thousand-year-old" English, or, Old English. Thus their speech is redolent of the mead-halls and fields of battle of Old English poetry such as <i>Beowulf</i>.<BR><BR>Source: me.</OL><BR><BR>Now, possibly Shippey or someone else has already said this, and we can copy it and credit them for it, but what if there's nothing to be found? We need a means to include factual explanations while avoiding reams of philosophical "interpretation". This sort of thing is what Anderson does so well in the <i>Annotated Hobbit</i> (much better than my effort). I'm not sure of the answer, but I think there has to be room for editorial comment of this sort..
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Postby ArPharazon » Sat Feb 21, 2004 1:28 am

<i>Excellent posts by all.</i> I agree entirely.<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR><i>Although I think you've picked an easy one, with lots of obvious source material, Arphy!</i><BR><BR>Deliberate on my part scirocco, to show that this sort of thing is not difficult, and to encourage people to take part. The more difficult passages will come. But after all, this is not a competition - is it??<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif"border=0><BR><BR><b>Do participants wish to start to think which chapters they would wish to be responsible for, in terms of editing, once we get going for real?</b><BR><BR>I will start to try to edit contributions to date, so you can all take a view on editing style etc. I'm happy to be gall-guy and take the flack/get things wrong, as we work out the best methods.<BR><BR>Thanks everyone - this has a real buzz now!!<img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR>ArPhy
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Postby Denethor » Sat Feb 21, 2004 1:29 am

This is a more "general" observation, but it still might be useful for the overall annotation project. <BR><BR>Line 2345 of <i>Beowulf</i> reads "Oferhogaode ða hringa fengel," which can be (apparently) be translated "Yet the lord of the rings was too proud..." This line may have been a possible source of inspiration for the actual title of the book.
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Postby ArPharazon » Sat Feb 21, 2004 1:32 am

Thanks Denethor, good point. But can we please restrict this thread to annotations for/discussion of annotations for this specific chapter. It will be complex enough to edit anyway!!<BR><BR>ArPhy
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Postby Aravar » Sat Feb 21, 2004 2:22 am

To add to Scirocco's point, could, perhaps, a note be added along the lines of:<BR><BR>'For an in-depth discussion of Tolkien's use of Anglo-Saxon in creating the Rohirrim see Shippey, The Road to Middle-Earth. 1st Ed.pp 93-100'.<BR><BR>Back to the chapter:<BR><BR>'There men in bright mail stand'<BR><BR>Tolkien, in Letter 211, descirbes the Rohirrim as being like the figures in the Bayeux Tapestry. The Tapestry depicts the Norman defeat of the Saxons at the Battle of Hastings in 1066. The figures on the tapestry are shown wearing knee-length mail, and wearing conical helmets with nose-guards. <BR><BR>[it might help if a link to a picture could be provided here, but I haven't a clue how to do it]
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