Annotated LotR: A Wish List

Discuss Tolkien's masterpieces within the walls of this forum.

Postby roaccarcsson » Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:17 pm

In anticipation of Earth Day, and in an effort to restore some momentuym to the Annotated LotR project, I'm recycling this thread for people to use to draw attention to desirable annotations that they themselves do not feel competent to provide.<BR><BR>My short list is to be found at the bottom.
User avatar
roaccarcsson
Mariner

 
Posts: 5542
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:21 pm
Top

Postby MithLuin » Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:28 pm

<BR>Also, could someone with some knowledge of languages contribute to the <a href='messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=78578' target=_blank>Council of Elrond</a> thread?<BR><BR>Hehe, mostly just to *BUMP* this, and illustrate <strong>roaccarcsson</strong>'s point: Don't do that!
User avatar
MithLuin
Mariner

 
Posts: 8533
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 1999 12:00 pm
Top

Postby -Rómestámo- » Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:12 am

While I am in favour of measures that reduce the workload on the editor(s) of the Annotation Project, I feel posting 'raw' url's (rather than an 'imbedded' link) to be an unnecessary step, particularly when the link is to an illustrative webpage (such as the links to photos of flowers in my annotations on <em>symbelmynë</em>). (See the February 27th, 2004 12:38 AM post in <a href='messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=78243' target=_blank>The Annotated LOTR - The King of the Golden Hall</a>).<BR><BR>In most cases, the url can be found by 'right-clicking' on the link.<BR><BR>For complex posts, it is probably easiest if the poster just emails the raw 'code' to the editor for that thread, for inclusion with links, format, bolding and italics intact. <BR><BR>However I thought that the role of 'editing' would involve more than just 'cutting-and-pasting' ? <BR><BR>Opinions?
User avatar
-Rómestámo-
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 2947
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:54 am
Top

Postby scirocco » Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:12 am

I'm don't mind helping the editor out by posting the raw URL, because it saves him a bit of time. While it's true that you can get each link from <em>Copy Shortcut</em> in the right-click menu, it's just another boring manual task that has to be done individually for each link. I imagine <strong>roac</strong> has something like a Word or txt document which he copies the contributions into; if he has to go back and individually retrieve the link URL's, it's just another 30 sec or so per link that he could be spending on the real editing, as opposed to the clerical tasks such as "cutting-and-pasting".<BR><BR>But "naked" URL's certainly look ugly; I must admit I don't like cluttering up my posts with them. However, for the greater good... <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
User avatar
scirocco
Ranger of the North
 
Posts: 2103
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 6:12 am
Top

Postby roaccarcsson » Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:09 pm

1. <strong>Somebody</strong> must have access to a First Edition - or better, to an authoritative list of the changes made in the Second.<BR><BR>2. The Prologue thread might as well start at the very beginning, i.e., the title page. Can somebody provide a transliteration of the Cirth and Tengwar? Does somebody have access to fonts that would enable them to trancribe the inscriptions into the thread?<BR><BR>3. More easily done would be a summary of the Breaking of Thangorodrim, to go with Elrond's reference in the CofE thread. (Maybe it's already there and I have overlooked it. I need to go there and review anyway.)
User avatar
roaccarcsson
Mariner

 
Posts: 5542
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:21 pm
Top

Postby MithLuin » Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:31 pm

Somebody <em>must have access to a First Edition - or better, to an authoritative list of the changes made in the Second.</em><BR><BR><strong>Gil-Estel</strong> has a (fragile) 1965 paperback. From what I can tell, the Second Edition did not come out until 1966, so that makes it a First Edition!<BR><BR>I agree that it would be better if someone had a list of changes. <BR><BR>Is the Forward to the Second Edition included in the Prologue thread, as well? I know there are lots of comments in either HoME or the Biography on timing relating to that. <BR><BR>I don't know of any Tengwar or Angerthas fonts that would show up inside the thread. Breogan will transliterate anything into Cirth or Tengwar, though, and post a link to it in <a href='messageview.cfm?catid=8&threadid=69141' target=_blank>The Official Tengwar Transliteration Thread</a>.<BR><BR>This website, by Dan Smith: <a href='http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/tengwar/exlotrt.htm' target=_blank>http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/tengwar/exlotrt.htm</a> has the Tengwar transcribed.<BR><BR>Here, he has the Cirth: <a href='http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/cirth/ex_lotr.htm' target=_blank>http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/cirth/ex_lotr.htm</a><BR><BR>I guess I should go post this in the Prologue thread <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR>
User avatar
MithLuin
Mariner

 
Posts: 8533
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 1999 12:00 pm
Top

Postby wilko185 » Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:41 pm

Re starting from the very beginning, <strong>Denethor</strong> posted somewhere a note on the title (the phrase LOTR(s) is from Beowulf).<BR><BR><em>Does somebody have access to fonts that would enable them to trancribe the inscriptions into the thread?</em><BR><BR>We can't use different fonts on TORC, unless there's some kewl new feature in the upcoming new messageboard software. (I will be able to include pictures of tengwar on my site though <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>). <BR><BR>---<BR><BR><strong>4. Page numbers, from whatever edition we are using.</strong>
User avatar
wilko185
Mariner

 
Posts: 8307
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 2:10 pm
Top

Postby roaccarcsson » Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:48 pm

If you haven't, don't bother - I'll move it over, no problem.<BR><BR>I feel inspired to do my Ancient Mariner number and point out that the First Edition is the one inside my head - from <em>Elen sila lumenn omentielmo</em> to "their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finrod." Some of the changes still jar on me when I read them.<BR><BR>(For a few days, at the age of 10, I was potentially rich, as the owner of a first-state, first American edition of LotR. It took me about that long to reduce its present-day value from five figures to waste paper.)
User avatar
roaccarcsson
Mariner

 
Posts: 5542
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:21 pm
Top

Postby truehobbit » Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:57 pm

What do you mean by a transliteration of the Cirth and Tengwar?<BR>The text there is just English, written in Cirth and Tengwar letters. So we'd just need to say what it says.<BR>Which is:<BR>Cirth<BR>The Lord of the Rings translated from the Red Book<BR>Tengwar<BR>of Westmarch by John Ronald Reuel Tolkien: herein is set forth the history of the War of the Ring and the Return of the King as seen by the hobbits.<BR><BR>I doubt that that's what you meant, though, so I didn't post it in the annotations thread yet. If it is what you meant, I'll post it over there.
User avatar
truehobbit
Mariner


 
Posts: 9282
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2002 5:01 pm
Location: in love
Top

Postby MithLuin » Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:03 pm

The website by Dan Smith that I linked to shows the value of each letter, which would be useful for someone who cannot yet read Tengwar or Cirth. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> So, yes, what you wrote is fine, but I beat you to it on the other thread <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Edit: No need, <strong>roaccarcsson</strong>, I've already posted it.<BR><BR><em>Page numbers, from whatever edition we are using. </em><BR><BR>We are using the Anderson text (editions using this text have a "Note on the text" at the beginning). The edition is the one-volume edition, though I do not know which publisher - Harper Collins? <strong>Eluchil</strong> proposed this standard, and mentioned that he happened to own it. I maintain that we should have one person, working with <strong>wilko</strong> to edit in page numbers. Externally (in the Lord of the Rings passage being annotated), they are not important, since the passage are quoted from in order. But internally (within the annotations), they will become more essential.
User avatar
MithLuin
Mariner

 
Posts: 8533
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 1999 12:00 pm
Top

Postby truehobbit » Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:12 pm

MithLuin, I'm not sure if what you said was referring to my post.<BR><BR>The tables in the appendices of LOTR are sufficient to find out what the Cirth and Tengwar on the first page say. I went and deciphered it the moment I had finished reading the appendices.<BR><BR>Edit: ah, seen your edit above, ok (well, I'm just too shy once I know something <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>).<BR>Still, I think the annotations should contain the text, too, rather than only the link, as that might go out of business anytime.
User avatar
truehobbit
Mariner


 
Posts: 9282
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2002 5:01 pm
Location: in love
Top

Postby MithLuin » Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:15 pm

<BR>Yes, <strong>truehobbit</strong>, you can read that, and it isn't hard to decipher. But the purpose of an annotated edition is to make things clear for those who may be confused. Not everyone, believe it or not, has transcribed those.
User avatar
MithLuin
Mariner

 
Posts: 8533
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 1999 12:00 pm
Top

Postby Impenitent » Fri Mar 26, 2004 10:18 pm

I have not involved myself in this sterling project at all, so perhaps my input here is extraneous, but if I may add just one more reason for keeping the raw url for links: if anyone wishes to download the text of the thread (through the magic TORC thread extraction machine) or simply to copy it down, the links become meaningless without an address in the final document.<BR><BR>And I would suggest that many people <strong>will</strong> be downloading the completed threads (or whatever format the final produce takes) so that they can use it to accompany their reading of LOTR.<BR><BR>So, thank you for providing the raw addresses - useful not only for the editors but for the readers also.
User avatar
Impenitent
Rider of the Mark

 
Posts: 865
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2003 8:55 pm
Top

Postby larindyl » Sat Mar 27, 2004 2:41 am

I am absolutely in awe of this project - I think it's amazing. I just wondered if I could be of any use. I have a 1968 edition of The Lord of the Rings - the first edition (I think) to be published all in one volume - it used to be my dad's - it was a 13th birthday present for him. It only has one appendix - the tale of Aragorn and Arwen, which I <em>think</em> is a first but I don't really know. I have come across textual changes over the course of reading it, which I can't really remember (it's quite fragile so I now read my own copy). Is the edition too late to be of any use?
User avatar
larindyl
Rider of the Mark

 
Posts: 778
Joined: Wed May 15, 2002 9:52 am
Top

Postby MithLuin » Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:54 pm

<BR>A 1968 version would be a second edition, I believe. But please, feel free to contribute anything you can!<BR><BR>I would also request that someone annotate "six meals a day, when they can get them" from the Prologue.<BR><BR>Oh, and the Forward! Plenty of biographical stuff there - like "all but one of my friends were dead" - names of dead friends and the sole survivor, as well as references to Letters or the Biography by Carpenter would be good.
User avatar
MithLuin
Mariner

 
Posts: 8533
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 1999 12:00 pm
Top

Postby Gil-Estel » Mon Mar 29, 2004 4:49 pm

I'm not certain what I have. It is a 1971 _reprint_ of the 1965 Ballantine edition. There are no comments about an edition change in the reprint history inside the cover. Could you post an obvious easy to spot difference in a passage so that I can determine which mine is?
User avatar
Gil-Estel
Rider of the Mark
 
Posts: 609
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 7:42 pm
Location: Vingilot
Top

Postby -Rómestámo- » Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:31 pm

<strong>Gil-Estel</strong> :<em>I'm not certain what I have. It is a 1971 _reprint_ of the 1965 Ballantine edition.</em><BR><BR>The 1965 Ballantine Edition is the first appearance of the Second Edition text, although it did not reach its most complete form until after the fourth impression in 1966 - and all subsequent Ballantine printings contained numerous errors and omissions uncorrected until (I think) 2002.<BR><BR>A (reconstructed) copy of the <em>Foreword</em> of the First Edition appears in the <a href='messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=79751' target=_blank>The Annotated LOTR - Foreword</a> thread: if your Foreword is different to this, then you have a Second Edition text.
User avatar
-Rómestámo-
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 2947
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:54 am
Top

Postby MithLuin » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:49 pm

Two new wishes:<BR><BR>1) An Index Thread, so we can keep track of all Annotation threads.<BR><BR>2) A new thread on Chapter 1: A Long-Expected Party<BR><BR>The Index Thread would have to be stickied - how do we do that? It could have a title like "Index - Annotation Project" or "Index-Annotated LotR"
User avatar
MithLuin
Mariner

 
Posts: 8533
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 1999 12:00 pm
Top

Postby Eluchil » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:49 pm

Romestamo has created the index thread (thanks!) and I have stickied it. He or any of the mods can edit it as necessary.
User avatar
Eluchil
Mariner
 
Posts: 6151
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 8:47 pm
Top

Postby Gil-Estel » Tue Mar 30, 2004 4:17 pm

Mine is indeed a second edition. Sorry.
User avatar
Gil-Estel
Rider of the Mark
 
Posts: 609
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 7:42 pm
Location: Vingilot
Top

Postby MithLuin » Tue Mar 30, 2004 4:44 pm

<BR>Thanks, <strong>Rómestámo</strong> and <strong>Eluchil</strong>!<BR><BR>The poor Index looks so bare...we need more Chapter threads!
User avatar
MithLuin
Mariner

 
Posts: 8533
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 1999 12:00 pm
Top

Postby roaccarcsson » Thu Apr 01, 2004 8:41 pm

Going crazy here: I know that somewhare in LotR there is a reference to a manuscript called "Yellowskin," kept by the Tooks. But I can't find it.<BR><BR>Regarding "Cirdan"; I did not know that the first element of his name meant "ship"; now that I do, I can see that it must be the same root as "cair," as in Cair Andros. Can anybody explain the phonological process that changes the vowel?
User avatar
roaccarcsson
Mariner

 
Posts: 5542
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:21 pm
Top

Postby -Rómestámo- » Thu Apr 01, 2004 8:55 pm

" 'Yellowskin', the Yearbook of Tuckborough" appears in Appendix D just prior to the list of Hobbit names for the days of the week.
User avatar
-Rómestámo-
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 2947
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:54 am
Top

Postby MithLuin » Thu Apr 01, 2004 9:05 pm

"The word <strong>cair</strong> provides an example of another peculiar property of this group of words: when they occur as the first element in compounds, <strong>ai</strong> is reduced to <strong>í-</strong>, as in the name <strong>Círdan</strong> "Shipwright". However, <strong>ai</strong> remains unchanged if such a word is the final element of a compound;"<BR><BR>From Ardalambion, of course <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR><a href='http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sindarin.htm#ai-plurals' target=_blank>http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sindarin.htm#ai-plurals</a><BR><BR>I can only parrot, not explain. Perhaps Eluchil could elucidate further, if there is more to this.
User avatar
MithLuin
Mariner

 
Posts: 8533
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 1999 12:00 pm
Top

Postby roaccarcsson » Fri Apr 02, 2004 5:51 am

Thsnks, guys!
User avatar
roaccarcsson
Mariner

 
Posts: 5542
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:21 pm
Top

Postby Queen_Beruthiel » Fri Apr 02, 2004 7:08 am

I'll start Chapter 1 thread tonight. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0>
User avatar
Queen_Beruthiel
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 2921
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2002 12:28 pm
Top

Postby -Rómestámo- » Sat Apr 10, 2004 9:21 am

It may be better to devote a thread solely to the <em>Foreword</em>(s), particularly if we plan to comment on JRRT's deceased friends etc.<BR><BR>It would be easy enough to transfer the few <em>Foreword</em>-related posts from the <em>Prologue</em> thread to a new one. <BR><BR>Opinions?
User avatar
-Rómestámo-
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 2947
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:54 am
Top

Postby roaccarcsson » Sat Apr 10, 2004 5:57 pm

Fine with me. I would appreciate it if someone else could take charge of it though.
User avatar
roaccarcsson
Mariner

 
Posts: 5542
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:21 pm
Top

Postby -Rómestámo- » Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:08 am

A new <a href='messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=79751' target=_blank>The Annotated LOTR - Foreword</a> thread has been begun, and the annotation concerning the <em>Foreword</em> has been transferred from the Prologue thread.
User avatar
-Rómestámo-
Ranger of the North


 
Posts: 2947
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:54 am
Top

Postby MithLuin » Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:18 am

<BR>Page numbers from a one-volume, post-1994 Houghten Mifflin edition (includes 'Note on the Text' by Douglas A. Anderson). These are for all annotations currently appearing in <strong>wilko</strong>'s website.<BR><BR>I have attempted to keep all quotes in order<BR><BR>p. 2 As for the Hobbits of the Shire <BR>p. 2 It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves.<BR>p. 2 The Beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days that are now lost and forgotten. <BR>p. 2 Those days, the Third Age of Middle-earth<BR>p. 3 Before the crossing of the mountains the Hobbits had already become divided into three somewhat different breeds:<BR>p. 4 And in those days also they forgot whatever languages they had used before, and spoke ever after the Common Speech, the Westron <BR>p. 4 the Fallohide brothers, Marcho and Blanco <BR>p. 4 While there was still a King they were in name his subjects <BR>p. 5 But in that war the North Kingdom ended<BR>p. 5 The land was rich and kindly, and though it had long been deserted when they entered it, it had before been well tilled, and there the king had once had many farms, cornlands, vineyards, and woods. <BR>p. 5 Forty leagues it stretched from the Far Downs to the Brandywine Bridge. <BR>p. 6 The tallest was furthest away, standing alone upon a green mound. <BR>p. 6-7 The Hobbits of the Westfarthing said that one could see the Sea from the top of that tower; but no Hobbit had ever been known to climb it.<BR>p. 9 The Shire was divided into four quarters, the Farthings <BR>p. 9 Outside the Farthings were the East and West Marches <BR>p. 9 the office of the Thain had passed to them (from the Oldbucks) <BR>p. 9 The Thain was the Master of the Shire-Moot <BR>p. 10-13 4. Of the Finding of the Ring<BR><BR>It occurs to me that the Ring-poem could go in the Foreward thread - being a title page type thingy <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif"border=0>. <BR><BR>p. 495 Dawn came clear and bright <BR>p. 495 inward they glimpsed a tumbled mountain-mass with one tall peak <BR>p. 495 there flowed, as a thread of silver, the stream that issued from the dale. <BR>p. 496 The light of it shines far over the land. <BR>p. 496 There men in bright mail stand <BR>p. 496 Edoras those courts are called<BR>p. 496 Meduseld is that golden hall<BR>p. 496 There dwells Theoden son of Thengel<BR>p. 496 King of the Mark of Rohan<BR>p. 496 That, I guess, is the language of the Rohirrim<BR>p. 497 Where now the horse and the rider?<BR>p. 497 Eorl the Young, who rode down out of the North<BR><BR>This also brings up fair use copyright issues. When we are done, we are likely to have brief quotes from every page of the book. Is that ok? <BR>
User avatar
MithLuin
Mariner

 
Posts: 8533
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 1999 12:00 pm
Top

Next

Return to The Books (Tolkien)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ahrefs.com and 1 guest