Does anyone know anything about Persian grammar??

Tolkien's worlds were birthed out of his love of language and his work at creating new ones. Enter into discussions surrounding Tolkien's languages.

Postby BanuiRochon » Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:48 pm

I'm writing a fanfic in which I'm substituting Persian for the language of the Haradrim...mostly for names of people and places. (I was reccommended Persian since it's vaguely related to Anglo-Saxon, which as we know Tolkien substituted for the tongue of Rohan...they both come from the Indo-European family.) If I were to have Persian/Haradrim dialogue I'd want to go through an in-depth study of the language, since I'd hate to be sitting there writing all these palpably incorrect sentances beriddled with grammatical insanities... <BR><BR>Anyway, I wasn't able to get any readable dictionaries (everything I could find was in Persian script, not Roman), so if they would have had any bearing on grammar they can't help me... I found a resource on the internet for actual words, but I'm stuck on plurals. Some of the names for various racial groups need to be pluralised, and I have no idea how to do that. For example in my story the Haradrim refer to the Gondorians as "stonelords", translated into Persian. The site I have doesn't give any specifics, so for "stone" I simply got <em>sang</em>, <em>gowhar</em>, and <em>kolux</em>, with no explanation on the different uses of these words or if they vary slightly in meaning (like, say, one might mean pebble, one might mean stone as a material, one might mean simply stone as an object...I don't know). For "lord" it gave me <em>xodavan</em>, <em>farmanrava</em>, and <em>sahryar</em>...again, nothing on the potential varying meanings of these words. And if I wanted to put them together to form "stonelord"...that presents my first dilemma. Is there any consonant mutation in Persian? Do adjectives follow the noun they modify or vice versa? Are there any special rules about forming names (like masculine and feminine inflection in Quenya, for example).<BR><BR>And if I wanted to pluralise it--"stonelord<strong>s</strong>", how would I go about that? Most importantly how are plurals formed? Prefixes, suffixes, umlaut? How do I know if I'm dealing with an irregular formation or not? And are there special plural rules for names/titles? In a compound, do <em>both</em> words become plural, like in Sindarin, or just the noun, like in English? If I'm going to add a linguistic element to my story, I'd like to at least do it right. <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0><BR><BR>Sorry if I've completely confused y'all with my questions... <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> Does anyone have any knowledge of Persian grammar whatsoever? Much thanks for any help you can give...<BR><BR>~Banui<BR><BR><strong>Quote of the Week:</strong><BR>"By Your wounds we are healed. Tell me what kind of love is this?" -Nichole Nordeman, "Healed"
User avatar
BanuiRochon
Shield Bearer

 
Posts: 183
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2003 3:11 pm
Top

Postby galadralorean » Tue Apr 13, 2004 3:19 pm

Hmmm sahryar is most likely related to "sir" and "signior" which means Lord in IE...<BR><BR>as for stone, i'm not sure which one to use... sorry... plurals, you'd have to consult the grammar.<BR><BR> - galadralorean
User avatar
galadralorean
Ranger of the North

 
Posts: 1240
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2002 1:22 pm
Location: Pittsburgh
Top

Postby Eression » Tue Apr 13, 2004 4:59 pm

<BR>I'll probably got some time tomorrow, or this week anyway, to consult my two Modern Persian books... we'll see what they say...<BR><BR>
User avatar
Eression
Rider of the Mark
 
Posts: 509
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 7:35 am
Top

Postby BanuiRochon » Thu Apr 15, 2004 1:54 pm

Thanks, y'all...<BR><BR>I wonder...could <em>sahryar</em> and <em>sir</em> and <em>signior</em> be related to <em>sahib</em>? That's Hindustani, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong). <img src="http://www.tolkienonline.com/mb/i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif"border=0> I love language roots... <BR><BR>~Banui<BR><BR><strong>Quote of the Week:</strong><BR>"By Your wounds, we are healed. Tell me what kind of love is this?" -Nichole Nordeman, "Healed"
User avatar
BanuiRochon
Shield Bearer

 
Posts: 183
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2003 3:11 pm
Top

Postby Eression » Thu Apr 15, 2004 4:35 pm

<BR><em>Yup. I couldn't really say anything about that, sorry... I checked a few things today, it wasn't quite what I expected but there was some useful new stuff too. It's pretty late up here so I shall finish the text tomorrow. I'll post it then, by the end of this week.</em><BR><BR><BR><BR>EDIT: Version 3 (Final Version)<BR><BR><BR>O.K., here we go... <em>I've skimmed through most of this before, now I'm getting it better crammed into my head also...</em> Let's take on the <strong>plural formation</strong> first. In Modern Persian (<em>Fârsî</em>), come in many respects like Modern English (both being Indo-European languages), pluralization is fairly easy -- only some Semitic-type words (or loans) have irregular plurals. The plural is generally formed by adding <em>-ân</em> for rational and <em>-hâ</em> for irrational creatures:<BR><BR><em>mard</em> 'a man' .... <em>mardân</em> 'men'<BR><em>sang</em> 'a stone' .... <em>sang-hâ</em> 'stones' (<em>gh</em> being a common transcription for Ghayin [~ French "R" ] )<BR><BR>When a word ends in silent <em>h</em> a euphonic <em>g</em> is inserted: <em>bandah</em> 'a slave' > <em>bandagân</em> 'slaves'.<BR><BR>Farsi has also adopted ao. a feminine and dual plural from Arabic; the first is applied with a euphonic <em>j</em> in irrationals: <em>qal'ah</em> 'a fortress' > pl. <em>qal'ajât</em> (or original irregular <em>qilâ'</em>). An example of the dual: <em>tarf</em> 'a side', <em>tarfain</em> 'the two sides/parties'.<BR><BR><BR><strong>Nouns in general.</strong> Persian does not actually differentiate between nouns and adjectives; thus <em>murdah</em> means both "dead" and something that is dead, i.e., "a dead man". These can be used as adjectives before "nouns" by adding the intermediary particle <em>i</em>.<BR><BR><strong>Compound nouns.</strong> These often apply a verb's present stem as the secondary element, e.g. <em>bad</em> 'bad' + <em>gû-</em> 'say' > <em>badgû</em> 'slanderous, evil-mouthed' (or such a creature)', or <em>rang</em> 'colour' + <em>zan-</em> 'strike' > <em>rangzan</em> 'painter (of houses, etc.)'. However, nominals are also utilized: <em>lâlah-rukh</em> 'tulip-cheeked', <em>shâhenshâh</em> 'the high-king, king of kings'.<BR><BR>Agental suffixes added to nouns (to indicate "-ster, -ker, monger of" ) have <em>-kar, -gar, -kâr, -gâr</em> (<em>âhan</em> 'iron' > <em>âhangar</em> 'blacksmith'; <em>kâr</em> '[a] work' > <em>kârgar</em> 'workman, worker'). For the verbal stems there is at least <em>-andah</em> (*<em>zanandah</em> 'striker'), = Italian <em>-ante</em>.<BR><BR><BR>There doesn't appear to be a basic verb for 'to rule, reign' that I could find, so maybe 'stone-lord' could be compounded using nominals: *<strong>sangkhân</strong>, or *<strong>sangshâh</strong>.<BR><BR><BR>The <strong>stress</strong> in Modern Farsi normally falls on the last syllable.<BR><BR><BR><strong>Other useful devices and words</strong> (btw, vowels sometimes fluctuate in some transcripts [due to development/Semitic-type nuance?]: a = e, î = i, u = o, etc.):<BR><BR><em>âmadan</em> ..... 'to come', (after nominal) 'to become ...' (<em>â-y-</em>; past <em>âmad</em>; imprt. <em>â!</em>)<BR><em>be ... í-e ân</em> ..... a construction for "as ... as"<BR><em>cho(n)</em> ..... a multi-particle determined by context, of old standing for "because" / "when, if" / "like" (prep.); and even for the interrogative "how?" (!!)<BR><em>dâdan</em> (<em>deh-</em>; past <em>dâd</em>) ..... 'to give' (imprt. <em>deh/dih!</em>)<BR><em>dâshtan</em> (<em>dâr-</em>; past <em>dâsht</em>) ..... 'to have' (imprt. <em>be-dâr!</em>)<BR><em>dîdan</em> (*<em>bid-</em>; past <em>dîd</em>) ..... 'to see' (imprt. <em>bid!</em>)<BR><em>-(g)í</em> ..... an abstractor suffix for nominals (<em>divâne</em> "mad" > <em>divânegî</em> "madness"; <em>bacche</em> "child" > <em>bacchegî</em> "childhood" )<BR><em>guftan</em> (<em>gû-</em>; past <em>guft</em>) ..... 'to say, speak' (imprt. <em>gû!</em>)<BR><em>istâdan</em> (<em>ist-</em>; past <em>istâd</em>) ..... 'to stand'<BR><em>kardan</em> (*<em>kun-</em>; past <em>kard</em>) ..... 'to do' (imprt. <em>kun!</em>)<BR><em>khândan</em> (<em>khân-</em>) ..... 'to read' (<em>khândam</em> 'I [did] read', past)<BR><em>khâstan</em> (<em>khâh-</em>) ..... 'shall' (also 'wish'), a future auxiliary followed by the past stem (<em>khâham rasîd</em> I will arrive); also the verb meaning "want" (<em>mi-khâhad</em> he wants) in modern language (imprt. <em>khâh!</em>)<BR><em>ma(-)</em> ..... prohibitive prefix (familiar from Arabic); <em>ma-ras</em> do not arrive!<BR><em>mî-</em> (older <em>hamî</em>) ..... present tense / past continuative prefix (*<em>mî-istam</em> I am standing, <em>mî-khânad</em> he/she reads)<BR><em>ná-</em> ..... verbal phrase negator (prefix), shifting stress to itself<BR><em>navishtan</em> (<em>navîs-</em>; past <em>navisht</em>) ..... 'to write' (imprt. <em>navîs!</em>)<BR><em>pardâkhtan</em> (<em>pardâz-</em>; past <em>pardâkht</em>) ..... 'to pay'<BR><em>raftan</em> (<em>rav-</em>; past <em>raft</em>) ..... 'to go, fare' (imprt. <em>ro!</em>)<BR><em>rasîdan</em> (<em>ras-</em>; past <em>rasîd</em>) ..... 'to arrive'<BR><em>sâkhtan</em> (past <em>sâkht</em>) ..... 'to make'<BR><em>shanîdan</em> (<em>shin-av-</em>; past <em>shinûd</em> or <em>shanîd</em>) ..... 'to hear' (<em>shanîdîm</em> we heard; imprt. <em>shino!</em>)<BR><em>shudan</em> (<em>shav-</em>) ..... a passive auxiliary ('to become, get done st to oneself')<BR><em>-(y)â</em>; <em>ai</em> ..... vocative suffix and a preposition in the more classical language (in modern colloquial Farsi vocative is expressed by shifting stress to the first syllable)<BR><em>yâftan</em> (<em>yâb-</em>; past <em>yâft</em>) ..... 'to find' (imprt. <em>yâb!</em>)<BR><em>zadan</em> (<em>zan-</em>; past <em>zad</em>) ..... 'to strike, make a fling with hand; play an instrument' (imprt. <em>zan!</em>)<BR><BR><BR>For more on the classical Farsi, see Thackston's <em>An Introduction to Persian</em> (by Ibex), p. 196.<BR><BR><BR>Sources<BR><BR>Palmer, E.H.: <em>English-Persian Concise Dictionary - Together with a Simplified Grammar of the Persian Language</em> (Bay Foreign Language Books)<BR><BR>Rafiee, Abdi: <em>Colloquial Persian</em> (Routledge)<BR><BR><em>Teach Yourself Modern Persian</em> (w.b. Mace, John; Teach Yourself Books/Hodder & Stoughton)<BR><BR>Thackston, W. M.: <em>An Introduction to Persian</em> (Ibex Publishers)<BR><BR><a href='http://gheyaspour.tripod.com/farhang/farhang/index.html' target=_blank>http://gheyaspour.tripod.com/farhang/farhang/index.html</a><BR><BR><BR>
User avatar
Eression
Rider of the Mark
 
Posts: 509
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 7:35 am
Top


Return to Language

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron