NienorNiniel
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Minardil
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:44 am |
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Hmmm.
How would Norwegians feel if Americans took out ads in Norwegian papers with the goal of influencing Norwegain elections? |
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NienorNiniel
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Minardil
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:08 am |
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Quote:
How would Americans feel if Norwegian politics were very important to the rest of the world, and American forces were sent to a war Norway started, but the majority of the American people did not support?
We would vote our government out of office at the first opportunity and replace it with one more in tune with the will of the people.
Did you pose this rhetorical question simply to avoid admitting that attempts by foreign groups, including Norwegians, to influence American domestic politics are IRRITATING, to say the least. You want a say in our process? Fine, move here, get a greencard, and go to the ballot box like everyone else. This sort of ad is reflective of the European attitude over the last half century that the US exists solely to safeguard European interests, and now it's gotten so entrenched that you think you should have a say in our elections.
What's really sad is that ads like will only backfire. I read an article by David Aaronovitch in the Guardian about a trip he took through Colorado, looking for "real Republicans" or some such. There he met a man who expressed his deep admiration for Tony Blair. Aaronovitch comments that just repeating this conservative American's endorsement probably cost Blair several hundred votes. The same thing will happen here. Outside criticism of Bush will only swing votes towards him. |
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Castanea_d.
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:31 am |
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I see it as valid for one reason:
President Bush is constantly talking about the Coalition, and the broad base of international support it represents. IMHO it is entirely fair for citizens of one of these countries to tell the American people that the overwhelming majority of people in their country oppose their involvement in their coalition, showing that the President's statements on the subject are less than candid.
But I agree with Minardil's last paragraph: it will only backfire, and swing votes to Mr. Bush. |
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Thenidmin
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:32 am |
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Minardil said:
You want a say in our process? Fine, move here, get a greencard, and go to the ballot box like everyone else. This sort of ad is reflective of the European attitude over the last half century that the US exists solely to safeguard European interests, and now it's gotten so entrenched that you think you should have a say in our elections.
Of course what they should be protesting is their own government's choice to participate in the war. If they can't vote out their own leaders every four years, they should revolt. I think if America was in a similar situation, where 80% of our public opposed a foreign policy action, we wouldn't do it because our politicians want to get re-elected. But, we are the dominant nation, and I expect the Norwegian government had reasons to support America that were apparently more important than their public opinion.
I think this is a good example of how who is president of America impacts the lives of people who have no say in choosing the president. |
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Last edited by Thenidmin on Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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NienorNiniel
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:35 am |
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Minardil said:
We would vote our government out of office at the first opportunity and replace it with one more in tune with the will of the people.
We're trying.
Minardil said:
Did you pose this rhetorical question simply to avoid admitting that attempts by foreign groups, including Norwegians, to influence American domestic politics are IRRITATING, to say the least. You want a say in our process? Fine, move here, get a greencard, and go to the ballot box like everyone else.
I can understand that it is irritating. I'm sure I would find it irritating myself. But it's also quite irritating to sit over here and watch Bush making decisions that affects everyone else, without being able to do something about it.
Thing is, you don't move to America just because you're irritated.
Minardil said:
This sort of ad is reflective of the European attitude over the last half century that the US exists solely to safeguard European interests, and now it's gotten so entrenched that you think you should have a say in our elections.
I'm beginning to repeat myself here, but how could we
not
want a say in your elections? I'm not saying that we should, 'cause we shouldn't, but many of us think that the world, including Norway, is a more dangerous place than it was before, because of the US President. Of course we want him out of office.
Minardil said:
What's really sad is that ads like will only backfire. I read an article by David Aaronovitch in the Guardian about a trip he took through Colorado, looking for "real Republicans" or some such. There he met a man who expressed his deep admiration for Tony Blair. Aaronovitch comments that just repeating this conservative American's endorsement probably cost Blair several hundred votes. The same thing will happen here. Outside criticism of Bush will only swing votes towards him.
I'm afraid you're right. That's why I don't support the ad, though I support the thought behind it. I think this is more a cry of frustration, as much about our own government (since they are our face to the world) as about the American one. |
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Xhen
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:09 am |
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I agree with Minardil that any European meddling in our election will only benefit Bush. If Norwegians aren't happy with their government's participation in Iraq then they need to deal with it in their own elections.
That ad also represents the manifest illogic in much of the European anti-war thinking. It both demands that the US humble itself in apology for the invasion and then says that the best quest for peace is a democratically-elected Iraqi government - an impossibility without that invasion. It places its faith in the corrupt and feckless United Nations - an institution that participated in the massive fraud known as the Oil For Food program and was incapable and unwilling to enforce its own resolutions against Saddam Hussein - rather than the American-led coalition which did what the UN would not and could not do.
One of the reasons that 80% of Norwegians opposed the war in Iraq might be because of the monolithic nature of the news media in Norway, if what this
American writer
living in Norway says is true:
Quote:
I moved from the U.S. to Europe in 1998, and I’ve been drawing comparisons ever since. Living in turn in the Netherlands, where kids come out of high school able to speak four languages, where gay marriage is a non-issue, and where book-buying levels are the world’s highest, and in Norway, where a staggering percentage of people read three newspapers a day and where respect for learning is reflected even in Oslo place names (“Professor Aschehoug Square”; “Professor Birkeland Road”), I was tempted at one point to write a book lamenting Americans’ anti-intellectualism—their indifference to foreign languages, ignorance of history, indifference to academic achievement, susceptibility to vulgar religion and trash TV, and so forth. On point after point, I would argue, Europe had us beat.
Yet as my weeks in the Old World stretched into months and then years, my perceptions shifted. Yes, many Europeans were book lovers—but which country’s literature most engaged them? Many of them revered education—but to which country’s universities did they most wish to send their children? (Answer: the same country that performs the majority of the world’s scientific research and wins most of the Nobel Prizes.) Yes, American television was responsible for drivel like “The Ricki Lake Show”—but Europeans, I learned, watched this stuff just as eagerly as Americans did (only to turn around, of course, and mock it as a reflection of American boorishness). No, Europeans weren’t Bible-thumpers—but the Continent’s ever-growing Muslim population, I had come to realize, represented even more of a threat to pluralist democracy than fundamentalist Christians did in the U.S. And yes, more Europeans were multilingual—but then, if each of the fifty states had its own language, Americans would be multilingual, too. I’d marveled at Norwegians’ newspaper consumption; but what did they actually read in those newspapers?
That this was, in fact, a crucial question was brought home to me when a travel piece I wrote for the New York Times about a weekend in rural Telemark received front-page coverage in Aftenposten, Norway’s newspaper of record. Not that my article’s contents were remotely newsworthy; its sole news value lay in the fact that Norway had been mentioned in the New York Times. It was astonishing. And even more astonishing was what happened next: the owner of the farm hotel at which I’d stayed, irked that I’d made a point of his want of hospitality, got his revenge by telling reporters that I’d demanded McDonald’s hamburgers for dinner instead of that most Norwegian of delicacies, reindeer steak. Though this was a transparent fabrication (his establishment was located atop a remote mountain, far from the nearest golden arches), the press lapped it up. The story received prominent coverage all over Norway and dragged on for days. My inhospitable host became a folk hero; my irksome weekend trip was transformed into a morality play about the threat posed by vulgar, fast-food-eating American urbanites to cherished native folk traditions. I was flabbergasted. But my erstwhile host obviously wasn’t: he knew his country; he knew its media; and he’d known, accordingly, that all he needed to do to spin events to his advantage was to breathe that talismanic word, McDonald’s.
For me, this startling episode raised a few questions. Why had the Norwegian press given such prominent attention in the first place to a mere travel article? Why had it then been so eager to repeat a cartoonish lie? Were these actions reflective of a society more serious, more thoughtful, than the one I’d left? Or did they reveal a culture, or at least a media class, that was so awed by America as to be flattered by even its slightest attentions but that was also reflexively, irrationally belligerent toward it?. . .
Yes, there’s much about the American news media that deserves criticism, from the vulgar personality journalism of Larry King and Diane Sawyer to the cultural polarization nourished by the many publishers and TV news producers who prefer sensation to substance. But to suggest that American journalism, taken as a whole, offers a narrower range of information and debate than its foreign counterparts is absurd. America’s major political magazines range from National Review and The Weekly Standard on the right to The Nation and Mother Jones on the left; its all-news networks, from conservative Fox to liberal CNN; its leading newspapers, from the New York Post and Washington Times to the New York Times and Washington Post. Scores of TV programs and radio call-in shows are devoted to fiery polemic by, or vigorous exchanges between, true believers at both ends of the political spectrum. Nothing remotely approaching this breadth of news and opinion is available in a country like Norway. Purportedly to strengthen journalistic diversity (which, in the ludicrous words of a recent prime minister, “is too important to be left up to the marketplace”), Norway’s social-democratic government actually subsidizes several of the country’s major newspapers (in addition to running two of its three broadcast channels and most of its radio); yet the Norwegian media are (guess what?) almost uniformly social-democratic—a fact reflected not only in their explicit editorial positions but also in the slant and selectivity of their international coverage. Reading the opinion pieces in Norwegian newspapers, one has the distinct impression that the professors and bureaucrats who write most of them view it as their paramount function not to introduce or debate fresh ideas but to remind the masses what they’re supposed to think. The same is true of most of the journalists, who routinely spin the news from the perspective of social-democratic orthodoxy, systematically omitting or misrepresenting any challenge to that orthodoxy—and almost invariably presenting the U.S. in a negative light. Most Norwegians are so accustomed to being presented with only one position on certain events and issues (such as the Iraq War) that they don’t even realize that there exists an intelligent alternative position.
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RELStuart
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Telemachos
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 7:13 am |
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I agree with Minardil and Xhen. Despite my personal anti-Bush feelings, I don't feel it's very appropriate for any foreign government to overtly try to influence another government's elections.
Despite the US's standing in the world, this is a matter that can only be decided by US citizens and IMHO that should be respected. |
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Koba
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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 7:41 am |
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The U.S. is the most powerful country in the world, and decisions made in the U.S. impact the rest of the world. That is a given. Therefore the rest of the world has an interest in our election. Should all the rest of the world get a greencard simply because they have an interest?
No, they should do what this Norwegian Organization is doing, and saying what their position is on the American election.
We in the U.S. have had a near monopoly on saying who should be in charge in other countries, ever since the fall of the U.S.S.R. It is the U.S. who is determining who rules Iraq and Afghanistan, for example.
Note, this wasn't a foreign government, but a foreign lobby saying their government isn't representing them. |
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It takes a government to create the degree of chaos commonly thought of as anarchy.
Liberals and libertarians support opposite policies to achieve the same goals. Liberals and progressives support the same policies to achieve opposite goals.
"Evidence confirming an observation is evidence that the observation is wrong" - some guy I once debated online.
Last edited by
Cenedril_Gildinaur
on 31 Feb 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total
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Saradoc
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:07 am |
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Telemachos said:
I agree with Minardil and Xhen. Despite my personal anti-Bush feelings, I don't feel it's very
appropriate for any foreign government to overtly try to influence another government's elections.
Despite the US's standing in the world, this is a matter that can only be
decided by US citizens and IMHO that should be respected.
Hear, hear. And let's apply that rhetoric unilaterally! Oh, right, it was called the Monroe Doctrine but everyone knows how out of date that claptrap from a founding father of the US is.
Minardil said:
How would Norwegians feel if Americans took out ads in Norwegian papers with the goal of
influencing Norwegain elections?
Sure sign of how wild the opinions can swing. The US can march into a country, depose rightful democratically elected ruler [despot, actually who had thrown out all pretense of continued democratic government] and enforce elections there. But the US's concerned citizens take affront when a foreign countries pays for an ad in a US paper critical of the US President. Let's dish it out, but we're not gonna take it, not from our loyal alliance partners. BTW, did the ad cost $120B or just 1/30th* of 10%*? (* Norwegian part of the costs not born by the US in its coaltion)
I foresee no bump to Bush by the his own coalition members people weighing in against his policies. This is a non-issue for undecideds.
And
Xhen
, I thought that article was trite the first time you posted it -- couldn't you just link to it? You don't want to be accused of making cut-and-paste arguments.
And "booooh" to the Norwegians for getting cute with their Internet country code: "tellhim.no" more like "listen2us.no". |
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Octagonian
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:20 am |
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I can understand why Norwegians would be concerned about our elections, and I can understand why they would feel obliged to make their opinions known to U.S. voters. But placing an ad like this will most likely backfire, IMO, as most U.S. voters would be more annoyed by this than anything else.
Norwegians would feel similarly if the situation were reversed, I believe. |
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vison
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:30 am |
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Thanks to those who pointed out that the offending advertisement was NOT from the Government of Norway.
Talk about tilting at windmills! Those poor saps in Norway, imagine.
And the nerve of them, having an ad printed in an American paper! Why, that's
terrible
. The next thing you know, some guy might decide to
invade
another country and try forcibly to change the government!!! Listen, it could happen. First, newspaper ads, next, armies on the march.
It's too bad that America doesn't export only Ricki Lake and "Dallas" re-runs. Still, having some experience with Norwegian TV, I have to admit that American TV does have a strange, exotic appeal. |
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Dwight Eisenhower said:
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron."
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Xhen
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Minardil
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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:05 am |
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This ad will have near to no effect on the election because (and this will sound harsh, but it's true) the majority of Americans don't give a darn what the Norwegians (in this particular case) think. Aside from the American posters on this board, the Midwesterners, the Southerners and many more in America just don't care about the world's opinion when it is contrary to their own. I don't see why people think this ad will backfire, because I doubt most Americans will even bother reading it. They will skim it and see "Norway" "Mr. President" "war in Iraq" and then just skip to the sports section to see this week's football predictions. I wonder how many Americans even know that Norway is part of the coalition.
I mean not offense to our Norwegian posters by saying all this. I value the world's opinion, as well as my fellow Americans', but I don't see this ad having any real effect at all, good or bad.
It is nice that people have pointed out that this is an organization
in
Norway, not necessarily endorsed by the Norwegian government. |
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Minardil
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:14 am |
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You are right that the effect from this particular ad will be negligible, but if foreign groups were adopt this tactic on a larger scale, there would be significant backlash, I think.
I disagree that Americans are intrinsically disenterested in the opinions of other nations. I think it is more accurate to say that Americans, like people everywhere, are most interested in those things that affect their lives directly. As has been pointed out by many, the American elections have a deep effect on the lives of people in other countries, whereas the elections in other nations, such as Norway, have little to no impact on the lives of Americans. As trivial as those football scores may be, they really do have more of an impact on the average American's life than do political developments in Norway. |
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Telemachos
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:22 am |
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I stand corrected on the government/group issue -- read it a bit too fast!
But that changes nothing really what I said. I'm sure Norwegians (or any other major European nation) would disapprove of a US lobby taking out ads telling them how they should vote.
But even simpler... it's silly, it's presumptuous, and IMO it's like PETA ranting and railing against animal abuse: I may be pro-environment and a vegetarian, but PETA does more to harm those causes through its wild histrionics than if it was utterly silent.
Xhen is right -- this will do nothing to influence people against Bush, and very well may make some indignant enough to vote *for* him. |
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Storyteller
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:11 am |
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It seems that The Guardian newspaper plans to engage in a lobbying project of their own.
http://guardian.assets.digivault.co.uk/clark_county/
Quote:
Operation Clark County
The result of the American election in less than three weeks could have huge consequences for the whole world. Yet those of us outside the 50 states have had no say in it. Until now, that is.
In the spirit of the Declaration of Independence's pledge to show "a decent respect to the opinions of mankind", we have come up with a unique way for non-Americans to express your views on the policies and candidates in this election to some of the people best placed to decide its outcome. It's not quite a vote, but it's a chance to influence how a very important vote will be cast. Or, at the very least, make a new penpal.
It works like this. By typing your email address into the box on this page, you will receive the name and address of a voter in Clark County, Ohio. You may not have heard of it, but it's one of the most marginal areas in one of the most marginal states: at the last election, just 324 votes separated Democrats from Republicans. It's a place where a change of mind among just a few voters could make a real difference.
Writing to a Clark County voter is a chance to explain how US policies effect you personally, and the rest of the world more generally, and who you hope they will send to the White House. It may even persuade someone to use their vote at all.
A few tips about writing to Clark County:
Be courteous. Remember that it's unusual to receive a lobbying letter from someone in another country. Think about how you would respond if you received a letter from Ohio urging you to vote for Tony Blair - or Michael Howard . . .
Don't make any assumptions about the voter with whom you have been matched. His or her name comes from the publicly available voters' roll. The voter has not registered any party affiliation. (We don't want individual Clark County voters bombarded with lobbying letters so this site will assign only one name and address to each user - please don't pass yours on to anyone else.)
Explain why you think they should pay the slightest bit of attention to what you think about their election. Remember, charm will be far more effective than hectoring.
Of course, who you urge your voter to support is entirely up to you. On October 20 we will publish a selection of the most persuasive letters to Clark County in the Guardian. To have yours considered, please email a copy to clark.county@guardian.co.uk.
That, for now, is our part. Over to you.
It does seem like a trend, when I think about it. |
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Dave_LF
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Octagonian
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Dave_LF
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Jude
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Minardil
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:20 am |
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So I read through the articles on the Guardian Clark County project. I was heartened by the admonition that letter writers be COURTEOUS and respectful, reminding Britons how they might feel if someone from Ohio wrote them a letter advising them to vote in a particular way.
Then I read the three "celebrity" letters, written by John LaCarre, Antonia Frasier, and some political professor I never heard of, each of which was peppered with the sort of "Bush is an evil killer, his advisors are crooks, his followers are stooges, and we'll all hate you even more if you reelect him" sort of rhetoric that will only alienate anyone in Clark County unlucky enough to get one of these in the mail. I'm from PA, but my parents are both from Licking County Ohio (that's right, Licking County - laugh now and get it out of your systems) and I still have scads of relatives in the Buckeye State. I think I should put them on watch for any envelopes with Royal Mail postal markings. . . . |
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Xhen
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:07 pm |
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Quote:
Then I read the three "celebrity" letters, written by John LaCarre, Antonia Frasier, and some political professor I never heard of, each of which was peppered with the sort of "Bush is an evil killer, his advisors are crooks, his followers are stooges, and we'll all hate you even more if you reelect him" sort of rhetoric that will only alienate anyone in Clark County unlucky enough to get one of these in the mail.
LOL, yeah I read those earlier. There's nothing like being talked down to by condescending British Socialists to make those corn-fed Ohio simpletons want to jump on the Kerry bandwagon. LeCarre's rant about Bush's "contempt for institutions of world government" was an especially effective touch since we all know that Clark County is a hotbed of support for subsuming American sovereignty to a single world government.
And those lucky Buckeyes receiving a letter from Dawkins must be scratching their heads over this metaphor: "But that's the Tony Martin school of foreign policy [Martin was a householder who shot dead a burglar who had broken into his house in 1999]. It's not how civilised countries, who follow the rule of law, behave." I'm guessing the common reaction in Clark County to this will be: "He shot a burglar who broke into his house? What's wrong with that?" |
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Octagonian
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Dave_LF
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Octagonian
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