Biblical Prophecies, Science, and Inerrancy

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Biblical Prophecies, Science, and Inerrancy

Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:53 am

Branching off of the Evolution thread so we don't have to discuss it there, it has been pointed out that Creationism must be true because the prophecies in the Bible have come true and therefore the Bible is authoritative.

So, is it?

Genesis

2:17 God says that if Adam eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then the day that he does so, he will die. But later Adam eats the forbidden fruit (3:6) and yet lives for another 930 years (5:5).

4:12 As a punishment for killing Abel, God says Cain will be "a fugitive and a vagabond." Yet in just a few verses (4:16-17) Cain will settle down, marry, have a son, and build a city. This is not the activity one would expect from a fugitive and a vagabond.

13:15, 15:18, 17:8, 28:13-14 God promises Abram and his descendants all of the land of Canaan. But both history and the bible (Acts 7:5 and Heb.11:13) show that God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled.

15:13 How long was the Egyptian captivity? This verse says 400 years, but Ex.12:40 and Gal.3:17 say 430 years.

15:16 "In the fourth generation they [Abraham's descendants] shall come hither again." But, if we count Abraham, then their return occurred after seven generations: Abraham, Issac (Gen.21:1-3), Jacob (Gen.25:19-26), Levi (Gen.35:22-23), Kohath (Ex.6:16), Amramn (Ex.6:18 ), and Moses (Ex.6:20).

26:4 God promises to make Isaac's descendents as numerous as "the stars of heaven", which, of course, never happened. The Jews have always been, and will always be, a small minority.

46:3-4 God renames Jacob for the first time (See 35:10 for the first renaming). God says that Jacob will henceforth be called Israel, but the Bible continues to call him Jacob anyway. And even God himself calls him Jacob in 46:2. 32:28, 35:10 (Gen.47:28-29)

49:10 The tribe of Judah will reign "until Shiloh," but Israel's first king (Saul) was from the tribe of Benjamin (Acts 13:21), and most of the time after this prophecy there was no king at all.

50:24 Contrary to the prophecy in 48:21, Joseph died in Egypt, not Israel.

Exodus

33:2 God promises to cast out many nations including the Canaanites and the Jebusites. But he was unable to fulfill his promise.

34:1 In this verse God says he will write on the stone tablets, but in 34:27 he tells Moses to do the writing.

Deuteronomy

7:1 God promises to cast out seven nations including the Amorites, Canaanites, and the Jebusites. But he was unable to fulfill his promise.

7:24 God says that the Israelites will destroy all of the peoples they encounter. But according to Joshua ( 15:63, 16:10, 17:12-13) and Judges (1:21, 27-36, 3:1-5) there were some people they just couldn't kill.

7:14-15 Those who do as God says will never be infertile (neither will their cows!) and will never get sick.

31:3-6 God promises to "destroy these nations before thee." But he didn't fulfill his promise.

Joshua

1:3-5 God promises to give Joshua all of the land that his "foot shall tread upon." He says that none of the people he encounters will be able to resist him. But later we find that God didn't keep his promise, and that many tribes withstood Joshua's attempt to steal their land.

3:10 Joshua tells the Israelites that God will "without fail" drive out the Canaanites and the Jebusites. But later, the Bible tells us that he could not drive them out.

8:28 This verse says that Ai was never again occupied after it was destroyed by Joshua. But Nehemiah (7:32) lists it among the cities of Israel at the time of the Babylonian captivity.

15:63 God promised the Israelites that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they pass through. But this verse shows that he didn't keep his promise since he couldn't drive out the Jebusites.

16:10 "And they drave not out the Canaanites." Once again God fails keep his promise to destroy all the people the Israelites encounter.

17:12-13 The Israelites, contrary to God's promises to them, could not drive out the Canaanites.

17:17-18 Joshua tells Manasseh that he will be able to drive out the Canaanites, but it turns out (see Jg.1:27-28 ) that he couldn't do it.

21:43-45 According to these verses, God fulfilled his promise to give the Israelites all of the lands that they encountered. But in several places the Bible tells us that these promises were not kept.

Judges

1:21, 27-30 God promised many times that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they encountered. But these verses show that God failed to keep his promise since he was unable to drive out the Canaanites.

3:1-5 God promised many times that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they encountered. But these verses show that God failed to keep his promise since he was unable to drive out the Canaanites.

2 Samuel

7:13. 16 God says that Solomon's kingdom will last forever. It didn't of course. It was entirely destroyed about 400 years after Solomon's death, never to be rebuilt.

2 Kings

22:20 God promises Josiah that he will have a peaceful death. But Josiah's death was anything but peaceful. (2 Kg.23:29-30, 2 Chr.35:23-24)

25:7 In Jeremiah (34:4) God tells Zedekiah that he will die in peace and be buried with his fathers. But this verse and Jer.52:10-11 say that he died a violent death in a foreign land.

2 Chronicles

1:12 That Solomon was the wisest and richest king to ever live is undoubtedly an exaggeration. Therefore it is also a false prophecy.

Psalms

89:3-4, 34-37 "I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations." But the Davidic line of Kings ended with Zedekiah; there were none during the Babylonian captivity, and there are none today.

Isaiah

7:5 God told Isaiah to tell Ahaz, the King of Judah, not to be concerned about Rezin (the king of Syria) or Pekah (the king of Israel). But according to 2 Chr.28:5-6 "God delivered him [Ahaz] into the hand of the king of Syria; and they smote him, and carried away a great multitude of them captives, and brought them to Damascus. And he was also delivered into the hand of the king of Israel, who smote him with a great slaughter."

7:14 The King James Version mistranslates the Hebrew word "almah", which means "young woman" as "virgin". (The Hebrew word, "bethulah", means "virgin".) In addition, the young woman referred to in this verse was living at the time of the prophecy. And Jesus, of course, was called Jesus -- and is not called Emmanuel in any verse in the New Testament.

13:19-20 These verses falsely predict that Babylon will never again be inhabited.

17:1 This verse prophesies that Damascus will be completely destroyed and no longer be inhabited. Yet Damascus has never been completely destroyed and is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities.

19:5 The river of Egypt (identified as the Nile in RSV) shall dry up. This has never occurred.

19:18 This verse predicts that there shall be five cities in Egypt that speak the Canaanite language. But that language was never spoken in Egypt, and it is extinct now.

19:18-21 These verses predict that the Egyptians will worship the Lord (Yahweh) with sacrifices and offerings. But Judaism has never been an important religion in Egypt.

19:23-24 These verses predict that there will be an alliance between Egypt, Israel, and Assyria. But there has never been any such alliance, and it's unlikely that it ever will since Assyria no longer exists.

30:26 "The light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold." Well, this is one prophecy that will never come true. Since the moon has no light of its own, but only reflects that of the sun, it could never shine like the sun. And the sun will not, at least not while there are humans to see it, shine 7 times as bright as it does now.

52:1 "Henceforth there shall no more come into thee [Jerusalem] the uncircumcised and the unclean." But many uncircumcised people have visited and occupied Jerusalem after this prophecy was made.

60:12 Nations that do not serve Israel will perish.

Jeremiah

3:17 Jeremiah prophesies that all nations of the earth will embrace Judaism. This has not happened.

9:11 God will make Jerusalem "a den of dragons."

10:22 Judah will become a desolate den of dragons.

22:28-30 Matthew (1:12) lists Jeconiah as an ancestor of Jesus -- which, according to this prophecy, disqualifies Jesus as the Messiah.

25:12 God says he is going to punish Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians for what they have done to his people -- even though God Himself is the one who made the Babylonians attack and enslave Judah! As part of the punishment God will take the land of the Babylonians and "make it perpetual desolations." A false prophecy, since present-day Iraq is quite occupied.

31:15 Matthew (2:17-18 ) quotes this verse, claiming that it was a prophecy of King Herod's alleged slaughter of the children in and around Bethlehem after the birth of Jesus. But this passage refers to the Babylonian captivity, as is clear by reading the next two verses (16 and 17), and, thus, has nothing to do with Herod's massacre.

33:!7 "David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel." But the Davidic line of Kings ended with Zedekiah; there were none during the Babylonian captivity, and there are none today.

34:5 God lies to Zedekiah again by telling him that he will die in peace and be buried with his fathers. But later (2 Kg.25:7 and Jer.52:10-11) he dies a violent death in a foreign land.

39:6-9 The beginning of the end for Zedekiah. Despite God's earlier assurances (34:5) that he would die peacefully at home, here Zedekiah watches as his children are killed and then has his eyes put out and he is shackled and taken to Babylon. Also, the city is burned and those remaining are enslaved.

42:15-18, 22 All those who move to Egypt will die by the sword, famine, or pestilence. None "shall escape from the evil" that comes directly from God. But many, including Jews, have moved to Egypt and most seem to have escaped from God's promised evil.

49:33 Jeremiah predicts that humans will never again live in Hazor, but will be replaced by dragons. But people still live there and dragons have never been seen.

50:39 God prophesies that Babylon will never again be inhabited. But it has been inhabited constantly since the prophecy was supposedly made, and is inhabited still today.

51:26, 29, 37, 43, 62, 64 God says that Babylon will be desolate and uninhabited forever. He says that only dragons will live there. But Babylon has been dragon-free and continuously inhabited since then.

52:10-11 God promised Zedekiah (Jer.34:5) that he would die peacefully and be buried with his fathers. But here we see that he died a miserable death in foreign land.

Ezekiel

12:23-34 God says, "The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision." So the days are near when all of the visions will come to pass? Hasn't happened yet. There's much left unfulfilled. Then, in the next verse, another falsehood: "For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel." As for "vain visions," the Bible is loaded with them, before and after Ezekiel's time.

21:28-32 Ezekiel Prophesies (in the 6th century BCE) that Ammonites will not be remembered any more. They continued to exist until the 2nd century CE. (And they are still remembered in the Bible.)

26:14,21 Ezekiel prophesies that Tyrus will be completely destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar and will never be built again. But it wasn't destroyed, as evidenced by the visits to Tyre by Jesus and Paul (Mt.15:21, Mk.7:24, 31, Acts 21:3).

27:36 Ezekiel repeats the false prophecy of the destruction and perpetual desolation of Tyrus. (See Mt.15:21, Mk.7:24, 31, Acts 21:3).

28:19 Once more Ezekiel repeats the false prophecy of the complete destruction of Tyrus and its perpetual desolation.

28:24-26 Ezekiel conveys God's promise that Israel will reside in their homeland safely, never again to be tormented by neighboring nations. One need only look to the newspaper for evidence that this has not been fulfilled. Israelites continued to be scattered from the area and tormented by other powers, including the Romans and Turks. In the 20th century, they were given a large portion of their homeland back, only to have the recent residents (Palestinians) revolt. After that, the surrounding Arab nations invaded Israel, though they were turned back. Israel has had nothing near a peaceful existence, nor does it appear they'll enjoy one anytime soon.

29:10-13 Ezekiel makes another false prophecy: that Egypt would be uninhabited by humans or animals for forty years after being destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar. But there was never a time when Egypt was uninhabited. Humans and animals have lived there continuously since Ezekiel's prophecy.

29:14-15 Egypt "shall be the basest of the kingdoms; neither shall it exalt itself any more above the nations: for I will diminish them, that they shall no more rule over the nations." But Egypt remained an important and often powerful nation. During the Tulunid dynasty (868-905 CE), for example, Egypt was the center of a small empire and conquered Syria.

30:3 "The day ... of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen." God plans to wipe out the heathen. When? Soon. Really soon.

30:12 The rivers of Egypt (identified as the Nile in NIV, NASB, and RSV) shall dry up. This has never occurred.

34:28-29 Once again, Ezekiel prophesies God will protect the Israelites from invasion and plunder as a shepherd protects his flock. Again, we know this has not happened.

Daniel

7:3, 8:3-6 Despite the knowledge that the writer of Daniel most likely lived well after the events he writes about, modern day Armageddonists, or Endtimers, use the vision of the four beasts to bolster their claim that the end is near. They say the lion, bear, leopard, and horned beast represent Europe, Russia, Israel and the U.S., respectively. And, in the battle between the ram and the one-horned goat, some believe this represents a battle between Christianity and Islam.

8:23-25, 11:21-45 To many endtimers, these verses describe the coming Antichrist. However, it is more likely that they describe a tyrant king of Syria, Antiochus IV. He reigned around 170 BCE and persecuted the Jews, sparking the Maccabean revolt. This information gives even more credence to the train of thought that has Daniel's writer living in the second century BCE, than in the sixth. Which wouldn't make these verses prophecy; they would be contemporary history.

9:25-27 If you want to be confused out of your gourd, check out The 70th. week of Daniel; Revelation Unsealed, By James D. Shade. This tries to link the time frame and descriptions in Daniel to the same type of passages in Revelation.

Hosea

6:2 "After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight." This may be the verse referred to in Luke 18:31-33 and 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. However, Hosea 6:2 refers to the people living at the time (hence "us") who were to be torn up by God and therefore cannot be fulfilled by the the death and resurrection of Jesus.

11:1 "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."
Matthew (2:15) claims that the flight of Jesus' family to Egypt is a fulfillment of this verse. But Hosea 11:1 is not a prophecy at all. It is a reference to the Hebrew exodus from Egypt and has nothing to do with Jesus. Matthew tries to hide this fact by quoting only the last part of the verse ("Out of Egypt I have called my son").

Joel

2:1 "The day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand." Is every really bad day the "day of the Lord"? And is it always "nigh at hand"?

Amos

9:15 Despite this promise, the Jews have been continually uprooted and their lives disrupted over the ages. Even today, their land ownership falls into question.

Obadiah

1:15 "For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen." If so, then it must have come and past, unnoticed, long before the birth of Christ.

Jonah

3:4 Jonah prophesies that in forty days Nineveh shall be overthrown. But it didn't happen because God repented (Jonah 3:10).

Micah

5:2 "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
The gospel of Matthew (2:5-6) claims that Jesus' birth in Bethlehem fulfils this prophecy. But this is unlikely for two reasons.
"Bethlehem Ephratah" in Micah 5:2 refers not to a town, but to a clan: the clan of Bethlehem, who was the son of Caleb's second wife, Ephrathah (1 Chr.2:18, 2:50-52, 4:4).
The prophecy (if that is what it is) does not refer to the Messiah, but rather to a military leader, as can be seen from verse 5:6. This leader is supposed to defeat the Assyrians, which, of course, Jesus never did.
It should also be noted that Matthew altered the text of Micah 5:2 by saying: "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda" rather than "Bethlehem Ephratah" as is said in Micah 5:2. He did this, intentionally no doubt, to make the verse appear to refer to the town of Bethlehem rather than the family clan.

Zephaniah

1:14-18 Zephaniah prophesies that "the great day of the Lord is near." But we're still waiting, 2600 years later.

Haggai

2:6 In "a little while" God "will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land."

Zechariah

9:9 The gospels (especially Mt.21:4-5 and Jn.12:14-15) claim that Jesus fulfils the prophecy of Zech.9:9. But the next few verses (9:10-13) show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea". Since Jesus had neither an army or a kingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.

10:11 The river of Egypt (identified as the Nile in NIV, NASB, and RSV) shall dry up. This has never occurred.

Malachi

3:1, 4:1, 5 The gospel of Mark claims that John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy given in Malachi (3:1, 4:1, 5). But the Malachi prophecy says that God will send Elijah before "the great and dreadful day of the LORD" in which the world will be consumed by fire. Yet John the Baptist flatly denied that he was Elijah (Elias) in John 1:21 and the earth was not destroyed after John's appearance.

Matthew

1:23 The prophecy given in Is.7:14 referred not to a virgin but to a young woman, living at the time of the prophecy. And Jesus, of course, was called Jesus -- and is not called Emmanuel in any verse in the New Testament.

2:5-6 Matthew claims that Jesus' birth in Bethlehem fulfils the prophecy in Micah 5:2. But this is unlikely for two reasons.
"Bethlehem Ephratah" in Micah 5:2 refers not to a town, but to a clan: the clan of Bethlehem, who was the son of Caleb's second wife, Ephrathah (1 Chr.2:18, 2:50-52, 4:4).
The prophecy (if that is what it is) does not refer to the Messiah, but rather to a military leader, as can be seen from Micah 5:6. This leader is supposed to defeat the Assyrians, which, of course, Jesus never did.
It should also be noted that Matthew altered the text of Micah 5:2 by saying: "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda" rather than "Bethlehem Ephratah" as is said in Micah 5:2. He did this, intentionally no doubt, to make the verse appear to refer to the town of Bethlehem rather than the family clan.

2:15 "Out of Egypt I have called my son,"
Matthew claims that the flight of Jesus' family to Egypt is a fulfilment of Hosea 11:1. But Hosea 11:1 is not a prophecy at all, as is clear when the entire verse is quoted ("When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."). It is a reference to the Hebrew exodus from Egypt and has nothing to do with Jesus. Matthew tries to hide this fact by quoting only the last part of the verse.

2:17-18 Matthew quotes Jeremiah 31:15, claiming that it was a prophecy of King Herod's alleged slaughter of the children in and around Bethlehem after the birth of Jesus. But this verse refers to the Babylonian captivity, as is clear by reading the next two verses (16 and 17), and, thus, has nothing to do with Herod's massacre.

2:23 "He shall be called a Nazarene." Matthew claims this was a fulfillment of prophecy, yet such a prophecy is not found anywhere in the Old Testament. Perhaps I should check out the Apocrypha

4:6, 10 The devil correctly quotes scripture (Ps.91:11-12), while Jesus misquotes Deuteronomy by adding "only" to Dt.6:13.

10:23 Jesus tells his disciples that he will return before they can "go over the cities of Israel." Later (24:14) he says he will not come until the gospel is preached throughout the world. Well, his disciples went over the cities of Israel and then died waiting for the "return of the Lord." Now, nearly 2000 years later, and long after the gospel had been preached throughout the world, his followers still wait.

12:5 When Jesus and his disciples are accused of breaking the sabbath, he excuses himself by referring to a scripture in which priests who "profaned the sabbath" were blameless. But there is no such passage in the Old Testament.

15:21 Jesus visits Tyre which according to Ezekiel (26:14, 21; 27:36, 28:19) was not supposed to exist.

16:28 Jesus mistakenly tells his followers that he will return and establish his kingdom within their lifetime.

21:4 This verse claims that Jesus fulfils the prophecy in Zechariah 9:9. But this cannot be since the person referred to in Zechariah (see verses 10-13) was both a military leader and the king of an earthly kingdom.

23:36 Jesus predicts the end of the world within the lifetime of his listeners.

24:14 Jesus says the gospel will be preached to all nations "and then shall the end come. Well according to Paul the gospel has been preached to everyone (Rom.10:18 ) yet the end hasn't come.

24:34 Jesus is a false prophet, since he predicts that the end of the world will come within the lifetimes of his disciples. The world of course didn't end then, and according to Ec.1:4 it never will end.

26:54-46 "But all this was done, that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled." What scriptures? What prophets? There is no such prophecy in the Old Testament.

26:64 Jesus falsely prophesies that the high priest would see his second coming.

Mark

1:2 Mark claims that John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy given in Malachi (3:1, 4:1, 5). But the Malachi prophecy says that God will send Elijah before "the great and dreadful day of the LORD" in which the world will be consumed by fire. Yet John the Baptist flatly denied that he was Elijah (Elias) in John 1:21 and the earth was not destroyed after John's appearance.

7:24, 31 Ezekiel (26:14, 21, 27:36) prophesied that Tyre would be completely destroyed, never to be built again. But it wasn't destroyed and continued to exist, as shown by this verse in which Jesus visits Tyre.

9:1 Jesus falsely prophesies that the end of the world will come within his listeners' lifetimes.

13:30 Jesus shows that he is a false prophet by predicting his return and the end of the world within the lifetime of his listeners.

14:62 Jesus falsely prophesies that the high priest would see his second coming.

Luke

9:27 Jesus falsely predicts that some of his listeners would live to see him return and establish the kingdom of God.

18:31 Jesus claims that his suffering and death were a fulfillment of prophecy. Hosea 6:2 perhaps? But this verse refers to the people living at the time (hence "us") and therefore cannot be fulfilled by the the death and resurrection of Jesus.

21:32 Jesus says that all that he describes (his return, signs in the sun, moon, and stars, etc.) will occur within the within the lifetime of his listeners.

24:44, 46 Jesus claims that his suffering and death were a fulfillment of prophecy. But there is no such prophecy in the Old Testament.

John

5:25 Jesus says that "the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." But this never happened.

5:46 Jesus claims that Moses wrote about him. Where? It's a shame he didn't give us chapter and verse.

7:38 Jesus says that those who believe in him will, as the scripture says, have living waters flowing out of their bellies. Well that sounds like fun, but what is the scripture that he was referring to?

10:16 Jesus falsely prophesies that "there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." This will never happen as long a Christian beliefs are based on the Bible.

12:15 This verse claims that Jesus fulfils the prophecy in Zechariah 9:9. But this cannot be since the person referred to in Zechariah (see verses 10-13) was both a military leader and the king of an earthly kingdom.

19:33, 36 Verse 33 says that during Jesus' crucifixion, the soldiers didn't break his legs because he was already dead. Verse 36 claims that this fulfilled a prophecy: "Not a bone of him shall be broken." But there is no such prophecy. It is sometimes said that the prophecy appears in Exodus 12:46, Numbers 9:12 and Psalm 34:20. This is not correct. Exodus 12:46 and Numbers 9:12 are not prophecies, they are commandments. The Israelites are told not to break the bones of the Passover lamb, and this is all it is about. And Psalm 34:20 seems to refer to righteous people in general (see verse 19, where a plural is used), not to make a prophecy about a specific person.

21:22 Jesus implies that he will return to earth during the lifetime of John.

Acts

3:23 Peter wrongly claims that Dt.18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all non-christians) must be killed.

7:5 This verse admits that God's promise to Abraham was not fulfilled. (See Gen.12:7, 13:15, 15:18, and 17:8 )

13:21 Gen.49:10 says that all of Israel's kings will be from the tribe of Judah, yet we see in this verse that Israel's first king was from the tribe of Benjamin.

20:35 In one of the few times that Paul quotes Jesus, he attributes to him words that are not found in the gospels.

21:3-4 Ezekiel (26:14, 21; 27:36) prophesied that Tyre would be completely destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar, never to be built again. Yet it wasn't destroyed, as is evident from these verses.

26:22-23 These verses claim that Moses and the prophets prophesied that Jesus would suffer and rise from the dead. But in what scripture is such a prophecy made?

Romans

10:18 Paul says that everyone, even in his day, had the gospel preached to them. Even the Native Americans, Asians, Pacific Islanders? In any case, if Paul is right about that, then Jesus is a false prophet, since he said he would return before the gospel was preached to everyone. (Mt.10:23)

13:11-12 Paul believed that the end of the world was coming soon. "The day is at hand."

1 Corinthians

1:7-8 Paul tells the Corinthians to be good until "the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." So he expected Jesus to return within their lifetimes.

7:29 Paul, like Jesus and the other New Testament writers, expects the end to come soon. "The time is short." So there's no time for sex, anyway, since the world will be ending soon.

10:11 Paul says that the end of the world will come during his lifetime.

15:3-4 These verses claim that the scriptures prophesied that Jesus would suffer, die, and be resurrected from the dead. But where are the prophecies that are referred to here? Hosea 6:2 perhaps? But this verse refers to the people living at the time (hence "us") and therefore cannot be fulfilled by the the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Philippians

1:10 Paul tells the Philippians to be good "till the day of Christ." So he must have expected Jesus to return within their lifetimes.

4:5 "The Lord is at hand." Paul thought that the end was near and that Jesus would return soon after he wrote these words.

1 Thessalonians

3:13 Paul expects Jesus to return within the lifetime of his followers.

4:15, 17 Paul thought he would live to see the rapture.

5:23 Paul prays that the Thessalonians will be good until Jesus returns. Of course this implies that he expected this to happen within their lifetimes.

2 Thessalonians

2:2 "The day of Christ is at hand." Paul believed that he would see Jesus' return.

1 Timothy

6:14 Paul expected Jesus to return within the lifetime of his contemporaries.

Hebrews

1:2 The author of Hebrews believed that he was living in the "last days."

9:26 Jesus sacrificed himself "in the end of the world."

10:37 The author of Hebrews believed that Jesus would come "in a little while, and will not tarry."

11:9-13 In Genesis (13:15, 15:18, 17:8 ) and Exodus (32:13) God promises Abraham and his descendants "the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession." But here Paul admits that God's promise went unfulfilled.

James

4:5 James quotes a scripture that says, "The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy." But there is no such verse in the Bible.

5:8 James thought that Jesus would return soon.

1 Peter

1:5, 7, 20, 5:4 Peter wrongly believed that he was living in the "last times."

4:7 Peter mistakenly believes that "the end of all things is at hand."

2 Peter

3:4 The author of 2 Peter is aware of the failed expectations of early believers. He knows that Jesus, who was to come soon, didn't come at all. many have begun to ask, "Where is the promise of his coming?" He tries to cover for Jesus by claiming that "one day with the Lord is as a thousand years."

1 John

2:18, 4:3 John thinks he is living in "the last times." He "knows" this because he sees so many antichrists around.

2:28 John warns his followers to get ready because Jesus is coming soon.

3:2 John expects to live to see Jesus return.

Jude

1:14-15 Jude says Enoch, "the seventh from Adam", prophesied that God would come with 10,000 of his saints "to execute judgment upon all." But this prophecy is from the Book of Enoch, not from the Bible.

Revelation

1:1, 3 John believes "the time is at hand," and that the things that he writes about in Revelation will "shortly come to pass."

3:11, 22:7, 12, 20 John quotes Jesus (1900 years ago) as saying, "Behold, I come quickly."

Next up, scientific problems.
Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby wntrmute » Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:34 pm

Heh, I know exactly where you're getting these.

Some of these are bogus interpretations; forexample the bit about 'Soloman being the wisest of kings,' is clearly not meant to be prophetic. But for a literalist who believes that the Bible contains no failed prophecies nor any unfufilled prophecies, some of these present distinct problems, regardless of context. Let's leave the questionable scientific or moral issues for another day.
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Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:50 pm

It really is a great resource, but I'm disappointed that none of the literalists from the evolution thread have shown up yet. Perhaps they're all trying to crossreference.
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Postby TheFiend79 » Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:05 pm

I'm reminded of Jon Stewart's/The Daily Show's new book where they have a timeline of history. I forget the exact date, but the caption basically says: "1600 BC: God makes a sacred covenant with Israel to be His chosen people; nothing bad ever happens to Jews again."
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Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:54 pm

Science too.

Genesis

1:1-2:3 The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In Genesis, the earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. The true order of events was just the opposite.

1:3-5 God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them?

1:6-8 God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters.

1:11 Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19).

1:11 God lets "the earth bring forth" the plants, rather than creating them directly. Maybe Genesis is not so anti-evolution after all.

1:14 In an apparent endorsement of astrology, God places the sun, moon, and stars in the firmament so that they can be used "for signs". This, of course, is exactly what astrologers do: read "the signs" in the Zodiac in an effort to predict what will happen on Earth.

1:16 God makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light, but only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky?

1:16 "He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making the stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars.

1:17 "And God set them [the stars] in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth."

1:24 In verse 11, God "let the earth bring forth" the plants. Now he has the earth "bring forth" the animals as well. So maybe the creationists have it all wrong. Maybe God created livings things through the process of evolution.

1:26 God gave humans dominion over every other living thing on earth.

1:28 God commands us to "be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over ... every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

1:30 All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, and barracudas -- all were strict vegetarians, as they were created by God.

1:31 "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." He purposefully designed a system that ensures the suffering and death of all his creatures, parasite and host, predator and prey.

1:31 In Genesis 1 the entire creation takes 6 days, but the universe is at least 12 billion years old, with new stars constantly being formed.

2:7 Humans were not created instantaneously from dust and breath, but evolved over millions of years from simpler life forms.

2:18-22 After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while. But animals were not created instantaneously from the ground, but evolved over millions of years. And we still don't have names for all of them. Ten thousand new species of insects are discovered and named each year.

3:14 God curses the serpent. From now on the serpent will crawl on his belly and eat dust. One wonders how he got around before -- by hopping on his tail, perhaps? But snakes don't eat dust, do they?

3:17-18 Because Adam listened to Eve, God cursed the ground and causes thorns and thistles to grow. Before this, according to the (false) Genesis story, plants had no natural defenses. The rose had no thorn, cacti were spineless, holly leaves were smooth, and the nettle had no sting. Foxgloves, oleander, and milkweeds were all perfectly safe to eat.

6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days." Well, I suppose it's good to know that. But why is there no archaeological evidence for the existence of these giants?

6:14-15 Noah is told to make an ark that is 450 feet long. The largest wooden ships ever built were just over 300 feet, and they required diagonal iron strapping for support. Even so, they leaked so badly that they had to be pumped constantly. Are we to believe that Noah, with no shipbuilding knowledge and no shipbuilding tradition to rely upon, was able to construct a wooden ship that was longer than any that has been built since? But not only was the ark too big to be seaworthy, it was far too small to be able to contain the earth's millions of plant and animals species.

7:8 Whether by twos or by sevens, Noah takes male and female representatives from each species of "every thing that creepeth upon the earth." Now this must have taken some time, along with expert knowledge of taxonomy, genetics, biogeography, and anatomy. How did Noah manage to collect the endemic species from the New World, Australia, Polynesia, and other remote regions entirely unknown to him? How, once he found them, did he transport them back to his Near Eastern home? How could he tell the male and female beetles (there are more than 500,000 species) apart? How did he know how to care for these new and unfamiliar animals? How did he find the space on the ark? How did he manage to find and care for the hundreds of thousands of parasitic species? How did Noah obtain and care for the hundreds of thousands of species of plants? (Plants are ignored in the Genesis account, but the animals wouldn't last long after if the plants died in the flood.) No, wait, don't tell me. A miracle happened. Millions of them.

7:13-14 All of the animals boarded the ark "in the selfsame day." Since there were several million species involved, they must have boarded at a rate of at least 100/second. How did poor Noah and his family make sure that the correct number of each species entered through the door and then get them all settled into their proper living quarters so efficiently? I wish the airline companies could do as well!

7:20 The flood covered the highest mountain tops (Mount Everest?) with fifteen cubits to spare. Where did all the water come from? Where did it all go? Why is there no evidence of such a massive flood in the geological record?

8:2 "The windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained." This happens whenever it stops raining.

8:8-11 Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes out again and returns with an olive leaf. But how could an olive tree survive the flood? And if any seeds happened to survive, they certainly wouldn't germinate and grow leaves within a seven day period.

8:19 When the animals left the ark, what would they have eaten? There would have been no plants after the ground had been submerged for nearly a year. What would the carnivores have eaten? Whatever prey they ate would have gone extinct. And how did the New World primates or the Australian marsupials find there way back after the flood subsided?

8:20-21 Noah kills the "clean beasts" and burns their dead bodies for God. According to 7:8 this would have caused the extinction of all "clean" animals since only two of each were taken onto the ark.

9:1 "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth." Although this would have been good advice for the mythical Noah, it is deadly advice for humankind as a whole. Overpopulation is one of our greatest problems, yet there is nothing in the bible to address it.

9:2 According to this verse, all animals fear humans. Although it is true that many do, it is also true that some do not. Sharks and grizzly bears, for example, are generally much less afraid of us than we are of them.

9:2 "Into your hand are they (the animals) delivered." God gave the animals to humans, and they can do whatever they please with them. This verse has been used by bible believers to justify all kinds of cruelty to anmials and environmental destruction.

9:13 God is rightly filled with remorse for having killed his creatures. He even puts the rainbow in the sky to remind himself of his promise to the animals not to do it again. But rainbows are caused by the nature of light, the refractive index of water, and the shape of raindrops. There were rainbows billions of years before humans existed.

10:25 Some creationists believe that this verse refers to continental drift, which, they say, began to occur during the days of Pelag (which means "division"), about 100 or so years after the flood. But many other creationists disagree.

11:1, 6 "The whole earth was of one language." But this could not be true, since by this time (around 2400 BCE) there were already many languages, each unintelligible to the others.

11:4 God worries that people could actually build a tower high enough to reach him (them?) in heaven.

11:9 According to the Tower of Babel story, the many human languages were created instantaneously by God. But actually the various languages evolved gradually over long periods of time.

11:10-32 The ridiculously long lives of the patriarchs.

21:32, 26:1, 21:32, 21:32, 8, 15, 18 In these verses the Philistines are said to have lived in Canaan at the time of Abraham, yet the Philistines did not live in the region until the period of the Judges, well after the time of Abraham.

30:37-39 Jacob displays his (and God's) knowledge of biology by having goats copulate while looking at streaked rods. The result is streaked baby goats.

44:5, 44:15 Joseph and his magic divining cup.

Exodus

1:5,7, 12:37, 38:26 The Israelite population went from 70 (or 75) to several million in a few hundred years.

4:11 Why are some people born with disabilities? Because God deliberately makes them that way.

Leviticus

11:5-6 The bible says that hares and coneys are unclean because they "chew the cud" but do not part the hoof. But hares and coneys are not ruminants and they do not "chew the cud."

11:13, 19 Bats are birds to the biblical God.

11:23 Be sure to watch out for those "other flying creeping things which have four feet." (I wish God wouldn't get so technical!) I guess he must mean four-legged insects. You'd think that since God made the insects, and so many of them (at least several million species), that he would know how many legs they have!

Numbers

1:45-46 The Israelite population went from seventy (Ex.1:5) to several million (over 600,000 adult males) in just a few generations!

13:33 "And there we saw the giants ... And we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight." This statement may have been figurative, hyperbole, typical biblical exaggeration, or an actual description of the sons of Anak, in which case they must have been about 300 feet tall. These are the same giants (the Nephilium) that resulted when the "sons of God" mated with "the daughters of men in Gen.6:4. Of course these superhuman god-men should have been destroyed in the flood. So what are they doing still alive?

Deuteronomy

3:11 Og, the king of the giants, was a tall man, even by NBA standards. His bed measured 9 by 4 cubits (13.5 feet long and 6 feet wide).

7:1 God promises to cast out seven nations including the Amorites, Canaanites, and the Jebusites. But he was unable to fulfill his promise. These nations were "greater and mightier" than the Israelites, who according to Ex.12:37 and Num.1:45-46 already had numbered several million. So the region, according to the bible, must have had a population of more than twenty million!

14:7-8 This verse mistakenly says that the hare chews its cud.

14:11, 18 To the biblical God, a bat is just an another unclean bird.

32:33 "Their wine is the poison of dragons." I wonder what genus and species the bible is referring to when it mentions dragons.

Joshua

8:1-29 In Joshua 8 the Israelites destroy Ai and make it a desolate heap. But archaeology has revealed that Ai was an abandoned city by the time of the Israelites and that this story is nothing more than a myth invented to explain the ruins of an ancient city that the Israelites encountered.

10:12-13 In a divine type of daylight savings time, God makes the sun stand still so that Joshua can get all his killing done before dark. "Is this not written in the book of Jasher?" Beats me.

12:4, 18:16 "And the coast of Og king of Bashan, which as of the remnant of the giants ..." Why is there no record of any of these giants in the archeological record?

Judges

5:20 "The stars in their courses fought against Sisera." Unless astrology is true, how can the stars affect the outcome of a battle?

1 Samuel

2:8 "The pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them.

2 Samuel

18:7 In another biblical exaggeration, the servants of David kill 20,000 soldiers in one day.

22:8-16 The earth shakes, the foundations of heaven move, smoke comes out of God's nostrils, and fire out of his mouth.

24:9 How many soldiers did Israel have? This verse says that Judah and Israel had a total of 1,300,000 fighting men (1 Chr.21:5 says 1,570,000) in this battle. Of course, this is a ridiculously high number for a battle between two tribal armies in 1000 BCE. (The United States had about 1.37 million active duty soldiers in 2001.)

1 Kings

7:23 This verse implies that the value of p is 3. (The actual value is approximately 3.14159.)

8:35 God creates droughts by causing "heaven to shut up" as a punishment for sin.

2 Kings

20:11 Isaiah, with a little help from God, makes the sun move backwards ten degrees. Now that's quite a trick. All at once, the earth stopped spinning and then reversed its direction of rotation. Or maybe the sun traveled around the earth in those days!

1 Chronicles

11:23 Among those killed by the "mighty man", Benaiah, was a giant Egyptian "five cubits high". Since a cubit is 18 inches or so, that would have made him about 7'6" (2.3 meters).

16:30 In this verse we are told that the earth is stable and does not move. If so, then it must not spin on its axis or travel about the sun.

21:5 According to this verse David's army had 1,100,000 men from Israel and 470,000 men from Judah, Of course, this numbers is ridiculously high for a battle between two tribal armies in 1000 BCE. (The United States had about 1.37 million active duty soldiers in 2001.)

29:7 King David collects ten thousand drams (or darics) for the construction of the temple in Jerusalem. This is especially interesting since darics were coins named after King Darius I who lived some five hundred years after David.

2 Chronicles

4:2 Since the molten sea was round with a diameter of ten cubits and a circumference of thirty cubits, we know that the biblical value of p is 3. (The actual value is approximately 3.14159.)

13:16-17 500,000 soldiers die in a single God-assisted slaughter.

Esther

6:6 "Haman thought in his heart." Most people think with their heads, but biblical folks think with their hearts.

Job

9:6 The earth rests upon pillars and doesn't move (unless God gets angry or something).

26:11 Heaven is set upon pillars that tremble when God gets mad.

38:4-6 The earth is set on foundations and it does not move.

38:22 God has snow and hail all stored up to use later "in time of trouble."

39:13-16 As the note in the Harper Collins Study Bible says, "This folk tradition about ostriches does not accord with facts about their nature." Ostriches are not cruel and stupid birds who abandon their eggs to die after laying them, as these verses imply. They are, in fact, careful and attentive parents. The male scoops out a hollow for the eggs, which are incubated by the female during the day and the male at night. After the eggs are hatched, they are cared for by the mother for over a month, at which time the chicks can keep up with running adults.

39:17 The bible is wrong about ostriches being cruel and inattentive parents (39:13-16). But if they were, whose fault would it be? Why would God deprive them of the wisdom and understanding needed to do the job right?

40:15 Bible believers have identified the behemoth as a hippopotamus, dinosaur, or wildebeest. But my favorite is the note in the Harper Collins Study Bible: "If tail(40:17) is not a euphemism for the sexual organ, Behemoth seems in this respect to resemble a crocodile."

Psalms

18:7 The earth shakes whenever God really gets mad.

18:15 "The foundations of the world were discovered ... at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils." Apparently, then, the earth is set on firm foundations and does not move -- and God has nostrils.

19:5-6 The sun moves around the earth.

22:21 God saves the author of this psalm "from the horns of the unicorns." He is a lucky guy -- those unicorns are vicious beasts.

29:6 God makes Lebanon and Sirion "like a young unicorn."

75:3 God holds the earth up with pillars.

82:5 Another reference to "the foundations of the earth", implying that the earth is fixed and does not move.

93:1 "The world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved."

96:10 "The world also shall be established that it shall not be moved."

104:5 God set the earth on firm foundations "that it should not be moved for ever." So, according to the Bible, the earth is stationary and does not orbit the sun

145:9 "The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works." Then why do nearly all animals die painful deaths from starvation, predation, or disease long before they reach adulthood?

Isaiah

11:6, 65:25 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb...." I wonder what will become of the spiders. Will they be more friendly toward flies? And will the parasitic wasps find another way to feed their larvae? Or will they continue to feed off the living bodies of caterpillars?

11:8 "And the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den." A cockatrice is a serpent, hatched from a cock's egg, that can kill with a glance. They are rare nowadays.

11:12 God will gather up the people of Judea "from the four corners of the earth." In the Bible's view, the earth is flat with four corners.

13:10 According to the Bible, the moon produces its own light and the earth does not move.

13:14 When God gets really angry, he causes earthquakes.

14:29 Out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent." What ever happened to these fascinating biblical creatures?

30:6 Among the many strange creatures mentioned in the Bible that no longer seem to exist is the "fiery flying serpent."

30:26 "The light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold." Well, this is one prophecy that will never come true. Since the moon has no light of its own, but only reflects that of the sun, it could never shine like the sun. And the sun will not, at least not while there are humans to see it, shine 7 times as bright as it does now.

34:7 "And the unicorns shall come down with them."

34:13 Dragons and satyrs may not seem real to you, but they did to the author of these verses.

38:8 God makes the sun move backwards 10 degrees. Now that's a neat trick!

40:22 According to this verse, the earth is a flat disc that God looks down upon from his throne in heaven. (The NRSV says, "It is he who sits above the circle of the earth....")

43:20 Even the dragons honor God.

59:5 Bad people hatch poisonous cockatrice eggs. Whoever eats the eggs will die, and when the eggs are crushed a viper hatches out of them.

60:19 "Neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee." Of course the moon doesn't give off light, but only reflects the light from the sun.

Jeremiah

10:10 When God gets angry, the earth trembles.

31:37 This verse implies that the earth is on foundations and does not move. But of course we know that the earth is in constant motion as it rotates about the sun.

Lamentations

4:3 Ostriches are not cruel and inattentive parents, as this verse implies. They are, in fact, careful and attentive parents. The male scoops out a hollow for the eggs, which are incubated by the female during the day and the male at night. After the eggs are hatched, they are cared for by the mother for over a month, at which time the chicks can keep up with running adults.

Ezekiel

7:2 To Ezekiel the earth is flat and has four corners.

32:7 God "will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light." To Ezekiel, the sun is just a little light that can be covered with a cloud, and the moon produces its own light.

Daniel

1:1 The third year of the reign of Jehoiakim would be 606 BCE, at which time Nebuchadnezzar was not yet king of Babylon. It was 597 BCE that Nebuchadnezzar invaded Jerusalem for the first time (without actually destroying it). By that time Jehohiakim was dead and his son, Jehoiachin, was ruling. (see Nebuchadrezzar II, Encyclopedia Britannica)

2:35 The stone became "a great mountain" that "filled the whole earth." This could only be possible on a flat, disc-shaped earth.

4:10-11, 20 Daniel's tree is tall enough to be seen from "the end of all the earth." Only on a flat earth would this be possible.

4:32-33 Nebuchadnezzar eats grass, lets his hair grow like eagle feathers and his nails like bird claws. Of course, there is no record in secular history that Nebuchadnezzar suffered any such strange sickness.

5:2,11,18,22 Apparently, the author of Daniel knew of only two Babylonian kings during the period of the exile: Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar, who he wrongly thought was the son of Nebuchadnezzar. But Nebuchadnezzar died in 562 BCE and was succeeded by his son, Awil-Marduk (referred to in the bible as "Evilmerodach" [see 2 Kg.25:27 and Jer.52:31]). In 560 BCE, Amel-Marduk was assassinated by his brother-in-law, Nergal-shar-usur. The next and last king of Babylon was Nabonidus who reigned from 556 to 539, when Babylon was conquered by Cyrus. It was Nabonidus, and not Belshazzar, who was the last of the Babylonian kings. Belshazzar was a the son and viceroy of Nabonidus. But he was not a king, and was not the son (or any other relation) of Nebochadnezzar. (See The Neo-Babylonian Empire, Encyclopedia Britannica).

5:31 Darius the Median is a fictitious character whom the author perhaps confused with Darius I of Persia, who came to the throne in 521 BCE, 17 years after the fall of Babylon. The author of Daniel incorrectly makes him the successor of Belshazzar instead of Cyrus. (See biblical literature, Daniel, Encyclopedia Britannica)

8:10 To Daniel, the stars are small objects that can fall from the sky and then be "stamped upon."

Joel

2:31 "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood." These "signs" were a lot more impressive before the causes of solar and lunar eclipses were understood.

Jonah

1:17 A human being cannot survive three days and nights in a fish's (or whale's) belly.

3:3 "Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey." That would make it about 60 miles in diameter -- larger than Los Angeles!

Micah

6:2 The earth is set upon strong foundations and therefore does not move.

Habakkuk

3:11 "The sun and moon stood still in their habitation." This verse apparently refers to Joshua 10:12-13, where God makes the sun stand still. Of course, this could only be possible if the sun moves around the earth.

Matthew

2:16 Herod kills all boys in and around Bethlehem that are two years old and under. Such a massacre would certainly have been noted by contemporary historians. Yet not even Josephus, who documented Herod's life in detail, mentioned this event.

4:8 The devil kidnaps Jesus and takes him up to the top of the temple, and then to the top of "an exceedingly high mountain," high enough to see "all the kingdoms of the world." I guess the earth was flat in those days.

6:26 "Behold the fowls of the air...." Jesus says that God feeds them. But, if so, he does one hell of a lousy job at it. Most birds die before leaving the nest, and the few who manage to fly soon die painful deaths of starvation, predation, or disease. If God is caring for them, pray that he stays away from you.

6:26 Speaking of the birds, Jesus asks: "Are ye not much better than they?" This is meant as a rhetorical question, but the answer is far from obvious to me. I guess to Jesus, though, birds are not worth much compared to humans. So you can do whatever the hell you want with (and to) them.

9:32-33 According to Matthew, people who cannot speak are possessed by the devil.

10:29. 31 God is involved in the death of every sparrow. He sees to it that they each die painful deaths of starvation, predation, or disease. But don't worry. God will do the same for you. (He thinks that humans are worth much more than sparrows.)

12:22 Jesus casts out a devil from a man who was blind and dumb (blind and dumb people are possessed by devils).

13:31-32 Jesus is incorrect when he says that the mustard seed is the smallest seed. And since there are no trees in the mustard family, mustard seeds do not grow into "the greatest of all trees."

17:15-18 Jesus cures an epileptic "lunatic" by "rebuking the devil." (Epilepsy is caused by devils.)

24:29 "The moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven." Apparently, Jesus believed that the moon produces its own light, and that the stars are lights held in place by a firmament only a few miles above our heads.

24:37 Jesus believed that Noah's flood actually happened.

Mark

4:31 Jesus is incorrect when he says that the mustard seed is the smallest seed. (The smallest seeds are found among the tropical, epiphytic orchids.)

9:17, 25 Jesus heals a boy with "a dumb spirit" by saying, "Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him and enter no more into him." (Sounds like a script from Monty Python, doesn't it?) But how could a deaf spirit hear the words spoken to it? And how could a dumb spirit cry out?

13:24-25 "In those days ... the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall." Of course this is nonsense. The billions of stars will never fall to earth and the moon does not produce its own light.

Luke

4:5 The devil takes Jesus to the top of a mountain and shows him "all the kingdoms of the world." I guess the world was flat in those days.

9:39-42 Epilepsy is caused by devils.

11:14 People who cannot speak are possessed with devils.

21:25 "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars."

John

1:28 "These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing." But no such site is known in history. Some translations (ASV, NAB, NIV, RSV, NRSV) rename Bethabara as Bethany, but Bethany is a suburb of Jerusalem and, therefore, not "beyond the Jordan."

Romans

5:12 Paul claims that before Adam sinned death did not exist. But, of course, death didn't enter the world a few thousand years ago because of Adam's sin. Death has been a part of life since life first arose (on this planet, at least) a few billion years ago.

1 Corinthians

15:36 Paul shows his ignorance (and God's) of biology by saying that only dead seeds will germinate. Actually, a seed must be alive to germinate.

1 Timothy

6:20 Paul instructs Timothy to avoid science, especially that which disagrees with him ("science falsely so called"). Other versions translate this phrase as "false knowledge", which may be more correct. However many fundamentalist Christians still use this verse ("science falsely so called") to justify their rejection of any idea, scientific or otherwise, they believe contradicts the bible.

Hebrews

1:10 God set the earth on a foundation; therefore, it must not move.

James

3:7 James says that, even in his day, all beasts, birds, serpents, and sea creatures had been tamed by humans.

5:14-15 If you are sick, don't go to a medical doctor -- rely on the power of prayer.

5:17 By praying, Elias was able to keep it from raining for three and a half years.

Revelation

1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him." This could only happen on a flat earth.

1:16 Jesus holds seven stars in his hand. Of course, it is possible that this is to be taken metaphorically. Perhaps. But it is clear from other verses (6:13, 8:10, 12:4) that John thought of stars as being small, perhaps even small enough for Jesus to hold in his hand.

6:13 "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth...." To John, the stars are just little lights a few miles away that can easily fall to the earth.

7:1 John "saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth." Well, I guess that settles it: the earth is flat and square-shaped, or at least quadrilateral in shape.

8:10 "And there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters." In the bible, stars are just little lights that can fall to the ground from the sky.

11:6 God's magic candlesticks and olive trees have special powers. They can shut up heaven so that it cannot rain (There are these little windows that open up whenever it rains.), turn rivers of water into blood (like the Egyptian magicians [Ex.7:22]), and to smite the earth with various plagues "as often as they will."

12:4 The dragon's tail smacks down to earth one third of the stars. Wow, that's quite a swipe! But to the author of Revelations, the stars are just little lights that can fall to the ground from the sky.
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Postby Lord_Morningstar » Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:26 pm

Gotta love the skeptics annotated Bible :)
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Postby wntrmute » Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:12 am

We haven't attracted anyone. Maybe we need to change the topic subject to 'Mocking the Secular Humanists with our Faith.' Or something.

Maybe there's just too many lions.
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Postby Earnil » Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:15 am

And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky?


Don't forget that for the other half of the time the Moon doesn't even do its job, instead of "ruling the night" it's hiding.:D
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Postby Aravar » Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:26 am

On one point, what exactly is the objection to a human being 7'6'' tall? IIRC correctly Peter Mayhew who plays Chewbacca is over 7', and the tallest recorde human was Robert Wadlow who was 8'11''.
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Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:29 am

Aravar, please reference the point you are referencing. I posted a great many difficulties.

I don't know why the biblical literalists aren't here. They were in the Evolution thread talking about how the Bible is inerrant.
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Postby Aravar » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:34 am

1 Chron 11:23, in your second post.
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Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:46 am

You're right, it's possible that the Egyptian was 7'6" tall. After all, they had full knowledge of nutrition and health care like we do today.

He's not impossible, only improbable.
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Postby Urulooke » Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:07 am

Good God! :shock: So many supposed "errors" in the Bible. I see little point in trying to counter all the objections. It would take way too much time. I could, of course, denounce some :roll: Edit [after reading the objections]: there are a lot that say the same thing; tackle one, tackle all.

2:17 God says that if Adam eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then the day that he does so, he will die. But later Adam eats the forbidden fruit (3:6) and yet lives for another 930 years (5:5).

What's the problem? He didn't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so he didn't die. He ate the forbidden fruit, and to prevent him from going further, he was expelled from the Garden.

4:12 As a punishment for killing Abel, God says Cain will be "a fugitive and a vagabond." Yet in just a few verses (4:16-17) Cain will settle down, marry, have a son, and build a city. This is not the activity one would expect from a fugitive and a vagabond.

Don't take it literally word for word. He was a fugitive from his family, and couldn't go back. Its quite possible he never saw them again. His children could give forth children, and so on.

7:24 God says that the Israelites will destroy all of the peoples they encounter. But according to Joshua ( 15:63, 16:10, 17:12-13) and Judges (1:21, 27-36, 3:1-5) there were some people they just couldn't kill.

Some people God forbade to kill. Those who were kept alive were the descendants of Esau (I believe, though I could be wrong).

I notice a lot of arguments revolve around the fact that certain people could not be driven out or killed; and arguments state the same thing. I'll just forget about the whole thing (at least for now).

1:12 That Solomon was the wisest and richest king to ever live is undoubtedly an exaggeration. Therefore it is also a false prophecy.

I see zero proof to support that, only opinion :roll: The Bible mentions how many "talents" Solomon had (talents being a form of currency, if you will eg. gold, silver)

13:19-20 These verses falsely predict that Babylon will never again be inhabited.

The site of Babylon remains in ruins and there are only few builings, etc if any as of now.

30:3 "The day ... of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen." God plans to wipe out the heathen. When? Soon. Really soon.

Exactly, he will destroy those who do what is bad in his eyes. Near means near. It just hasn't happened yet.


2:1 "The day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand." Is every really bad day the "day of the Lord"? And is it always "nigh at hand"?

What? Just read my above comment. It is nigh at hand.

3:4 Jonah prophesies that in forty days Nineveh shall be overthrown. But it didn't happen because God repented (Jonah 3:10).

Nineveh was very bad. God would have overthrown them, but he sent Jonah to preach. It worked; they repented.

1:14-18 Zephaniah prophesies that "the great day of the Lord is near." But we're still waiting, 2600 years later.

Listen: he didn't mean for them, he meant for us. What did you expect it within a few years? Things take time. God's day is fixed, unchanging. It just so happens that we think it takes long. Ditto for all similar objections.

9:9 The gospels (especially Mt.21:4-5 and Jn.12:14-15) claim that Jesus fulfils the prophecy of Zech.9:9. But the next few verses (9:10-13) show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea". Since Jesus had neither an army or a kingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.

He meant a heavenly kingdom.

4:6, 10 The devil correctly quotes scripture (Ps.91:11-12), while Jesus misquotes Deuteronomy by adding "only" to Dt.6:13.

The scriptures were recopied time and time again, and today, there are many different translations (because the Hebrew etc. languages are complex; a word could rightly be translated in different ways.)

16:28 Jesus mistakenly tells his followers that he will return and establish his kingdom within their lifetime.

He returns to the heavens and establishes a kingdom.

26:64 Jesus falsely prophesies that the high priest would see his second coming.

There will never be nor has there ever been a second coming. Ditto for all the other "second coming" objections.


I haven't my Bible with me now, so I couldn't explain many verses.

Check 2 Timothy 3:1-5: If its the right verse, it describes people as being cruel, disobeying their parents, ungrateful, without natural affection, friends of pleasures rather than friends of God, etc. Surely you can't say that this doesn't apply to today's world. And behold, it states "in the last days" (or something similar; remember, I haven't my Bible with me). Check the verses in full before you comment.

I'll be going for now........ :wink:


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Postby Urulooke » Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:19 am

Check this site :wink: :
http://members.tripod.com/~GaryCooper/rabbit.html


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Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:10 am

Urulooke wrote:What's the problem? He didn't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so he didn't die. He ate the forbidden fruit, and to prevent him from going further, he was expelled from the Garden.


Actually there is a problem. The forbidden fruit was the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? A clever serpent (God's most "subtil beast") talks to Eve about trees, death, and the knowledge of good and evil. He persuades her to eat the forbidden fruit. She takes the first bite and gets the full blame (3:12, 16).
3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

You can't rationalize it away by saying that the fruit of the tree of knowledge wasn't the forbidden fruit. They were the same.

Urulooke wrote:I notice a lot of arguments revolve around the fact that certain people could not be driven out or killed; and arguments state the same thing. I'll just forget about the whole thing (at least for now).


When one verse says "all" and another verse shows "not all", it's a contradiction. Even if some of the "all" and "not all" are descendants of Easu. If he didn't mean "all", he should have said "all except the descendants of Easu".

Urulooke wrote:I see zero proof to support that, only opinion :roll: The Bible mentions how many "talents" Solomon had (talents being a form of currency, if you will eg. gold, silver)


I'm sure that his huge piles of wealth made him richer than, say, Queen Victoria. Richer than Emperor Augustus Ceasar. Richer than Prince Saud.

Unlikely.

Urulooke wrote:The site of Babylon remains in ruins and there are only few builings, etc if any as of now.


Not only was Babylon inhabited for a while after it's supposed destruction, it

wntrmute wrote:was inhabited up until the Islamic conquest, though with an ever-decreasing population to be fair. In any case, it continued to be inhabited for a long while after the Medes attacked. Saddam had a palace there, and was rebuilding the wall. There is a town that currently exists on part of what used to be the city of Babylon. Currently there are Marines stationed in the middle of old Babylon, in Saddam's palace. And what about Is 17:1, where Damascus will no longer be a city, but only a ruinous heap? Damasus is one of the oldest continually occupied cities in the world. Isiaha also predicts the 'river of Egypt' (which can only be the Nile) would dry up and that the five cities of Egypt would speak Caananite, and they would build an altar to the Lord. None of which is ever recorded as having happened.


Also, coprophagy is not cud chewing, and that doesn't address the issue of bats being birds or four footed grasshoppers.
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Postby Aravar » Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:43 am

Another point on your list, CG, Act 20:35 (second post) which records a saying by Jesus that isn't in the Gospels. What here is the objection: Jesus is bound to have said other things: His entire speech is not recorded in the gospels: compare John 21:25, and Acts 1 which is the sequel to Luke's gospel.

I wouldn't use Victoria as an example of a wealthy English Monarch, Henry VIII would be better. By Victoria's time, as today, I suspect some of her subjects will have been wealthier. The comparson with the Caesars is apt, as would be Alexander, or Louis XIV, or the Chinese Emperors.

urulooke why do you say there will never be a Second Coming? It appears to be menaing of the verse CG cited, and it is in the Nicene Creed:

'He will come again in glory to judge the lving and the dead and His kngdom will have no end.'

That has been the traditional position in the Church.
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Postby halplm » Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:47 am

What's the point here? That you can interpret the Bible in ways that make parts of it erronious, or prophesies aren't true?

How moronic can you get? It's an ancient text that people who even speak the same languages don't always agree on translations.

Also it's full of metephor and analogy. It's open to many many interpretations. Even people that believe every word is literally true disagree DRASTICALLY on what every literal word necessarily means.

If you want to hate Christians, or think their stupid, or whatever, fine. But this type of argument is pointless. Don't you think, that given the number of people throughout history that have HATED the Bible, if there was any REAL evidence that parts of it were completely false, then we would know about it now?

In this argument, Cenedril, you are the FAR undereducated. Don't take lack of response to mean there is no response. You are simply in a VERY friendly environment on this board. I won't pretend to be able to answer all your points, but I can put you in touch with countless theologens who would run circles around you.

Just as you enjoy doing in the Evolution thread.
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Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:36 am

halplm wrote:What's the point here? That you can interpret the Bible in ways that make parts of it erronious, or prophesies aren't true?


The point is, some believe this to be an infallable and inerrant document. All of those listed in those two posts pose serious problems to inerrancy.

halplm wrote:Also it's full of metephor and analogy. It's open to many many interpretations. Even people that believe every word is literally true disagree DRASTICALLY on what every literal word necessarily means.


Does metaphor and analogy apply to Genesis 1 and 2, or merely to the parts that are difficult to the cause of inerrancy? How consistent is the literalism?

halplm wrote:If you want to hate Christians, or think their stupid, or whatever, fine. But this type of argument is pointless. Don't you think, that given the number of people throughout history that have HATED the Bible, if there was any REAL evidence that parts of it were completely false, then we would know about it now?


I don't hate Christians or think they are stupid. I do, however, find the idea of Biblial Inerrancy to be a flawed idea, Bibliolatry, in direct contradiction to the First Comandment. But yes, there is real evidence that parts of it are completely false, such as how Babylon was occupied long after the Medes attacked, and how Damascus still exists.

halplm wrote:In this argument, Cenedril, you are the FAR undereducated. Don't take lack of response to mean there is no response. You are simply in a VERY friendly environment on this board. I won't pretend to be able to answer all your points, but I can put you in touch with countless theologens who would run circles around you.


I'm sure you take great pride in calling me a fool in this thread, because I used lists assembled from an outside source, but I also have held my own quite well against practicing theologens. Not only have I actually studied the Bible and Christian theology, I've studied other theologies as well. You are hoping I'm out of my depth; I'm sorry to disappoint you.
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Postby Minardil » Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:15 pm

Also it's full of metephor and analogy.


You are absolutely right. The Bible is filled with metaphors, symbols, and other stories meant to illustrate a point or teach a moral, but are not meant to be taken literally.

Like the Story of Genesis, for example.
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Postby Meril36 » Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:54 pm

A quick spelling correction: it's theologian. Don't be misled by the sound of the word. (I have to every now and then. It's hard enough on me never being allowed to point out the egregious errors my fellow English majors make in spelling and grammar in my writing class.)
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Postby truehobbit » Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:35 pm

LOL, I must admit the the exercise seems a bit pointless.
And, most of all, much too long! ;)

I just glanced through the examples, and it seemed some of the "prophecies" can only be considered prophecies with a lot of interpretation, and some of the "science" statements probably aren't meant to be statements about scientific facts at all.
Plus, the quotes are out of context and may have a completely different meaning that what you ascribe to them.

The list ignores the difficulties of translation (as halplm said before) and ways of expressing things in ancient cultures.

I don't know the first thing about the Old Testament, but one thing from the New Testament caught my attention:

Matthew

1:23 The prophecy given in Is.7:14 referred not to a virgin but to a young woman, living at the time of the prophecy. And Jesus, of course, was called Jesus -- and is not called Emmanuel in any verse in the New Testament.

Well, Jesus means something like "God helps" and Emmanuel means "God with us" - which is similar enough, I think.

Moreover, if I remember correctly, in the best known English translation it says "his name shall be called Emmanuel".
Now I don't know what it said in the original and whether the translation is accurate, but it's possible that in the thought of ancient cultures, which seemingly were rather obsessed with names, the name and what the name is called might be two different things.
Just a thought to show how careful you have to be before bluntly stating "mistakes".
(Ok, I know there's a scene in Through the Looking Glass that says the same thing, but I'm not mocking here, I'm really wondering if they are two different things. (And Carroll is of course pointing out some subtle linguistic differences, too.))

On the whole, though, I guess if someone really says everything in the Bible has to be taken literally and everything is true as it stands in the English translation and as quoted by you, C_G - they've got some work to do with those examples. ;)
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Postby Beren_of_Barahir » Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:03 pm

I'm impressed by the effort you that you spend finding and typing out all of these alleged inaccuracies within the Bible, but I find a number of your arguments to be faulty. I did not read each problem that you listed (haven't had the time yet), but I did notice a number of times that you are basing your objections upon your own assumption regarding the interpretation of the text. I'm curious, just what is your background regarding the interpretation of Scripture and did you take the time to look at these verse in their immediate and broad contexts or did you rip them out of the text to set them up to fall? There are a number of passages in the Bible that, taken by themselves and matched up against others, seem to contradict. But in each case it is found that when they are looked at within their context and studied so they do hold up. And just so you know, I do hold to the inerrency of Scripture.
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Postby Urulooke » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:22 pm

Finally, I'm not the only one :roll:

I'm sure that his huge piles of wealth made him richer than, say, Queen Victoria. Richer than Emperor Augustus Ceasar. Richer than Prince Saud.

Unlikely.

Well, why not? Tell me: why is it so hard to believe that he was the richest man ever? Why is that impossible? And you have still to show some proof (all you have is personal opinion). And "unlikely" supposes that it still is possible. It will take more than this to convince a skeptic.

In retrospect, yes, the forbidden fruit did come from the tree of good and evil. I was confusing it with the tree of life. Thats what happens when you don't have your Bible with you (as was the case with me). And when God said Adam would die the day he ate it, he didn't mean literally. When he ate it, he introduced death into the world; he didn't die himself on the spot (imagine how inconvenient it would be to have to start over with creating humans :roll: )

urulooke why do you say there will never be a Second Coming? It appears to be menaing of the verse CG cited, and it is in the Nicene Creed:

'He will come again in glory to judge the lving and the dead and His kngdom will have no end.'

He will judge the living and dead, but from Heaven, like I said. Furthermore see this verse: John 18:36. Pretty much self-explanatory. Why would he come back to earth if his kingdom is not of earth?

I'm dropping further discussion on the Babylon/desolation and rabbit/rumination examples since there seems to be little point in continuing..... :roll: Plus, everything there is to say has pretty much been said about those things.


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Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:15 am

truehobbit wrote:On the whole, though, I guess if someone really says everything in the Bible has to be taken literally and everything is true as it stands in the English translation and as quoted by you, C_G - they've got some work to do with those examples. :wink:


My point isn't that the Bible is all wrong. Seriously, that's not my point. I'm not trying to attack the Bible, but Biblical Literalism. There are peopel who insist that the Bible is 100% accurate in every way, and if science and the Bible disagree, too bad for science because science is wrong. These problems, while some of them are stronger than others, are all problems that must be answered if someone holds the absolute literalist point of view.

I, for one, think that if the Bible is correct, certain parts must be metaphor, such as Genesis.

Urulooke wrote:Well, why not? Tell me: why is it so hard to believe that he was the richest man ever? Why is that impossible? And you have still to show some proof (all you have is personal opinion). And "unlikely" supposes that it still is possible. It will take more than this to convince a skeptic.


The wealth that Prince Saud has didn't even exist in the time of Solomon. He could buy and sell medevial kings before breaking for lunch. Solomon was probably the richest king of Israel, but wasn't the richest king ever.

Nor does he compare to Augustus Ceasar. Augustus Ceasar ruled an empire far larger than Solomon ever did. Solomon ruled a fair portion of the Middle East while neighboring stronger empires were in decline, but everything that Solomon ruled and much more was ruled by Augustus. Solomon had the wealth of Solomon's empire. Augustus had the wealth of Augustus' empire. The latter included not only the wealth of the Middle East and the territory that was once Solomons, but the wealth of Europe. Augustus commanded an army far larger than any Solomon ever did, ruled more acres than Solomon ever did, ruled more people than Solomon ever did, and had a larger tax base than solomon ever did.

Even the last reigning British Monarch, before they all become figureheads, Queen Victoria. She had the entire British Empire, which spanned the globe. No local ancient monarch could ever hope to compete with that.

Now, even if you drop the coprophagy/cud and the fact that Babylon contined to be inhabited for a long time afterwards, you still have a lot to answer for if your a literalist who believes in inerrancy. Especially Damascus, which shouldn't exist.
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Postby Urulooke » Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:24 pm

6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days." Well, I suppose it's good to know that. But why is there no archaeological evidence for the existence of these giants?

I would think its because the flood killed them all.

Concerning the flood (or at least part of your objections, for now), I don't think there were millions of species of animals back then. Remember: the earth was relatively new. I don't think there was enough time for millions of species to amass. He could just take the main groups and all subsequent related species could branch off. Why (and how) on earth could Noah collect all the insects? I think they probably just stayed on the outside of the ark, or perhaps they were unaffected by the torrential downpour. Oh and by the way, if you read one of my posts in the evolution thread, you would have seen me say that animal skeletons have been found in places they never would have lived. Furthermore, there are places where skeletons of different animals are all packed together.

8:2 "The windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained." This happens whenever it stops raining.

And........? :roll: Was it supposed to be miraculous? God stopped the rain, period. And considering the flood was of Divine origin, it cannot be compared with ordinary rain nowadays.

24:37 Jesus believed that Noah's flood actually happened.

So do I. What's your point? :wink:

5:12 Paul claims that before Adam sinned death did not exist. But, of course, death didn't enter the world a few thousand years ago because of Adam's sin. Death has been a part of life since life first arose (on this planet, at least) a few billion years ago.

He meant human death. And those figures always crack me up (a billion years, 5 billion years, pile them on!). Perhaps humans have been around for several thousand years, but what about plants? Well, not anywhere near a billion years. When the Bible uses "days" when refering to creation, they weren't literal days. They could have been thousands of years, which still don't amount to a billion.

I'll address further issues some other time :wink: :D
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Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:43 pm

Urulooke wrote:I would think its because the flood killed them all.


The question is why there is no evidence that they ever existed, not why they don't exist now. Fossils are remains of creatures that once lived but are dead now. Why are there no fossils of giants? The fact that they are dead isn't an impediment - it's a requirement.

Urulooke wrote:Concerning the flood (or at least part of your objections, for now), I don't think there were millions of species of animals back then. Remember: the earth was relatively new. I don't think there was enough time for millions of species to amass. He could just take the main groups and all subsequent related species could branch off. Why (and how) on earth could Noah collect all the insects? I think they probably just stayed on the outside of the ark, or perhaps they were unaffected by the torrential downpour. Oh and by the way, if you read one of my posts in the evolution thread, you would have seen me say that animal skeletons have been found in places they never would have lived. Furthermore, there are places where skeletons of different animals are all packed together.


In other words, you do believe in macro-evolution. At this point, if you're a typical creationist, you will now fall back on saying "within kinds", without defining kinds. If "kind" is genus, then you still can't fit them in the ark. If "kind" is family, then the chimps and the humans are in the same kind. The relation of the human ape to the other apes being the point creationists wish to avoid is established by defining "kind" broadly enough to fit them all on the ark. Otherwise you have speciation, macroevolution.

Now, I might have missed that bit about animal skeletons, so I do wish you to present the evidence. I would also like this evidence that a flood had happened.

Urulooke wrote:He meant human death. And those figures always crack me up (a billion years, 5 billion years, pile them on!). Perhaps humans have been around for several thousand years, but what about plants? Well, not anywhere near a billion years. When the Bible uses "days" when refering to creation, they weren't literal days. They could have been thousands of years, which still don't amount to a billion.


Could the "day" have been a billion years? Two billion? Or is that beyond the capabilities of an omnipotent deity? Are you placing limits on God? I'm merely doubting the infallability of a book, not a deity.
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Postby portia » Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:50 pm

Did someone post a link to those Biblical citations? If so, I missed it. Can we try again? Thanks.

The supposed errors do not bother me as I have ever thought of the Bible as inerrant. It is not even an issue for me, although I know some people are quite concerned with it. I certainly would never, ever, think that a second or third hand translation of the Bible would be "inerrant."

Take a look at some of the discussion threads adressing translations of parts of LOTR into other languages for a good example of why a translation is necessarily unreliable.
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Postby Harvestar » Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:30 am

One of the scariest errors of Biblical Literalism is one I only recently heard about:
In explaining why Miriam "Ma" Ferguson, who was governor of Texas in 1924, was opposed to legislation that would have required every high school student in the state to learn a foreign language, Ferguson picked up a Bible and said, "If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it ought to be good enough for the children of Texas."


:Q

I have heard some explanations for the Flood - many cultures in that area of the world have Flood myths. And the Black Sea was formed in a rather rapid event when the isthmus was broken at the site of Constantinople. I believe Bob Ballard (the dude who found Titanic) found remains of houses in the bottom of the Black Sea.

Additionally, there was a program on the other night saying how the 10 plagues in Egypt likely came from a large flooding year in the Nile. (the Nile would have turned red from the silt upstream, many animals would have died too - both contributing, with the flooding there would have been flies which transmit disease, causing the boils, then locusts) They said it was the order the plagues occurred that gave the clue as to their cause. As these occur during such years when the flooding is very high.

Thought that was interesting! :)
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Postby Cenedril_Gildinaur » Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:15 am

Both the list of predictions and the list of scientific problems come from the Skeptics Annotated Bible.
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Postby Beren_of_Barahir » Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:57 am

Matthew
23:36 Jesus predicts the end of the world within the lifetime of his listeners.
24:34 Jesus is a false prophet, since he predicts that the end of the world will come within the lifetimes of his disciples. The world of course didn't end then, and according to Ec.1:4 it never will end.
26:64 Jesus falsely prophesies that the high priest would see his second coming.
Mark
9:1 Jesus falsely prophesies that the end of the world will come within his listeners' lifetimes.
13:30 Jesus shows that he is a false prophet by predicting his return and the end of the world within the lifetime of his listeners.
14:62 Jesus falsely prophesies that the high priest would see his second coming.
Luke
21:32 Jesus says that all that he describes (his return, signs in the sun, moon, and stars, etc.) will occur within the within the lifetime of his listeners.
John
5:25 Jesus says that "the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." But this never happened.
Romans
13:11-12 Paul believed that the end of the world was coming soon. "The day is at hand."
1 Corinthians
1:7-8 Paul tells the Corinthians to be good until "the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." So he expected Jesus to return within their lifetimes.
7:29 Paul, like Jesus and the other New Testament writers, expects the end to come soon. "The time is short." So there's no time for sex, anyway, since the world will be ending soon.
10:11 Paul says that the end of the world will come during his lifetime.
Philipians
1:10 Paul tells the Philippians to be good "till the day of Christ." So he must have expected Jesus to return within their lifetimes.
4:5 "The Lord is at hand." Paul thought that the end was near and that Jesus would return soon after he wrote these words.
2 Thessalonians
2:2 "The day of Christ is at hand." Paul believed that he would see Jesus' return.
1 Timothy
6:14 Paul expected Jesus to return within the lifetime of his contemporaries.
Hebrews
1:2 The author of Hebrews believed that he was living in the "last days."
9:26 Jesus sacrificed himself "in the end of the world."
10:37 The author of Hebrews believed that Jesus would come "in a little while, and will not tarry."
James
5:8 James thought that Jesus would return soon.
1 Peter
1:5, 7, 20, 5:4 Peter wrongly believed that he was living in the "last times."
4:7 Peter mistakenly believes that "the end of all things is at hand."
2 Peter
3:4 The author of 2 Peter is aware of the failed expectations of early believers. He knows that Jesus, who was to come soon, didn't come at all. many have begun to ask, "Where is the promise of his coming?" He tries to cover for Jesus by claiming that "one day with the Lord is as a thousand years."
1 John
2:18, 4:3 John thinks he is living in "the last times." He "knows" this because he sees so many antichrists around.
2:28 John warns his followers to get ready because Jesus is coming soon.
3:2 John expects to live to see Jesus return.
Revelation
1:1, 3 John believes "the time is at hand," and that the things that he writes about in Revelation will "shortly come to pass."
3:11, 22:7, 12, 20 John quotes Jesus (1900 years ago) as saying, "Behold, I come quickly."


With all of these verses lies the same complaint or argument, which is that Jesus promised His return to be very soon. To look at this from the human standpoint I agree it would be hard to believe. Jesus promised these things thousands of years ago and as of yet He has not returned. But this argument is based on a huge misconception. It makes the mistake of placing Jesus, who is the Son of God and a member of the Trinity, within the confines of time. In order for there to be time, there must be a beginning to that time. There must be a point when time begins. If Jesus was confined by the limits of time then He is not who He claimed to be, but if He is not confined by time then what is very soon to Him could be thousands of years to the disciples, or even more to us. Because Jesus is the Son of God, and equal in essence and nature with God the Father (John 8:58, 14:9), He is outside the limits of time. He was before time began (I AM -- a claim to eternity...no beginning and no end). This is true to the term "generation" which is found in most of these references. As far as the "last days" is concerned, this refers to the the time of Jesus' ascension to the present day and on until His second coming. In other words, the last days were the days of the apostles ministry as much as they are now. In Luke 12:35-41 Jesus is addressing the very subject of His return and He said that though His return was certain the date was unknown to any. In 1 Thessalonians 5:2 Paul writes that "the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night" meaning that it will be unexpected, just as Jesus claims. It's true that it hasn't happened yet, but it will.

Matthew
4:6, 10 The devil correctly quotes scripture (Ps.91:11-12), while Jesus misquotes Deuteronomy by adding "only" to Dt.6:13.


This argument holds absolutely zero weight considering that the Bible was written by the divine inspiration of God (with whom Jesus is one). To say that Jesus misquoted the Scriptures which He Himself inspired is ridiculous.

Jonah
3:4 Jonah prophesies that in forty days Nineveh shall be overthrown. But it didn't happen because God repented (Jonah 3:10).


On more than one occassion the intercession of a prophet on behalf of a people spared lives that otherwise would have been taken. Jonah was fully aware of this. Jonah did not want to preach the destruction of the Ninevites because he did not want them to be spared. But nevertheless, and reluctantly, Jonah made his way to Nineveh and proclaimed the destruction to them. The Ninevites repented and God had compassion on them. I don't see the error in this passage. The argument is simply a fact recorded in Scripture.

2 Chronicles
1:12 That Solomon was the wisest and richest king to ever live is undoubtedly an exaggeration. Therefore it is also a false prophecy.

Undoubtedly an exaggeration? On what grounds is this argument made? Opinion, skepticism, assumption... Because the objector of this statement does not believe it does not make it a false prophecy.

Just so you know, these were arguments that I chose to respond to at random...aside from the "last days" passages in the NT. I'll be back later to address more of these arguments.
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