The Annotated LOTR - The Mirror of Galadriel

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The Annotated LOTR - The Mirror of Galadriel

Postby wilko185 » Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:21 pm

    This is another installment in the Annotated LOTR chapter threads (see here details). Anyone, please feel free to suggest further annotations of anything in this chapter that you think may be obscure to some readers, or that you know something interesting about :). If you don't know anything interesting about this chapter - pick something that you've always wondered about, and look it up ;).

    I'm not sure how much detail to give about Galadriel here, perhaps a bit more than this is called for, if anyone can supply a condensed summary. Unfortunately, I don't see how we can give a single canon version.

    --------



    The Mirror of Galadriel [Chapter title]
      Galadriel was chosen by Artanis ('noble woman') to be her Sindarin name; for it was the most beautiful of her names, and, though as an epessë, had been given to her by her lover, Teleporno [>Celeborn] of the Teleri, whom she wedded later in Beleriand. As he gave it in Telerin form it was Alatáriel(lë). The Quenyarized form appears as Altariel, though its true form would have been Naltariel. It was euphoniously and correctly rendered in Sindarin Galadriel. The name was derived from the Common Eldarin stem NAL 'shine by reflection'; *nalata 'radiance, glittering reflection' (from jewels, glass or polished metals, or water) > Quenya nalta, Telerin alata, Sindarin galad, + the Common Eldarin stem RIG 'twine, wreathe', *riga 'wreath, garland'; Quenya, Telerin ria, Sindarin ri, Quenya, Telerin rielle, -riel 'a maiden crowned with a festival garland'. The whole, = 'maiden crowned with a garland of bright radiance', was given in reference to Galadriel's hair.

      - HoME 12, p. 347


      Galadriel, like all the other names of Elvish persons in The Lord of the Rings, is an invention of my own. It is in Sindarin form (see Appendices E and F) and means "Maiden crowned with gleaming hair." It is a secondary name given her in her youth in the far past because she had long hair which glistened like gold but was also shot with silver. She was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats.

      - Letter 348, dated 6 March 1973.


      Artanis was her "father-name", her "mother-name" was Nerwen, 'man-maiden'. Although the Sindarin word galadh, 'tree', occurs in Caras Galadhon and galadhrim (see below), it is not connected to Galadriel. However, outside Lórien among those whose memories of the ancient days and Galadriel's history had grown dim her name was often altered to Galadhriel. Not in Lórien itself (UT).

      Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years (UT). The different versions of her complex history are recounted in UT, 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn', and in various volumes of HoME. She was the daughter of Finarfin, sister of Finrod Felegund, and grandmother of Arwen; and the only great Noldo to remain in Middle-earth after the end of the First Age. She is variously said to have travelled from Valinor into exile with the other Noldor, or to have journeyed separately with Celeborn; to have met Celeborn in Aman, or in Doriath, or in Lórien; to have refused the pardon of the Valar, or to have had it withheld from her until the time of LOTR; or to have not even required it. The textual history of Galadriel and Celeborn during the Second and Third Ages is complex, to the extent that Christopher Tolkien writes:
      There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies "embedded in the traditions"; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings.

      - UT, 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn'


      In the published Letters, Tolkien twice acknowledges suggestions by that the character of Galadriel is influenced by his devotion, as a Catholic, to the Virgin Mary.
      . . . I am a Christian (which can be deduced from my stories), and in fact a Roman Catholic. The latter "fact" cannot perhaps be deduced; though one critic (by letter) asserted that the invocations of Elbereth, and the character of Galadriel as directly described (or through the words of Gimli or Sam) were clearly related to Catholic devotion to Mary.

      Letter 213, dated 1958; Letter 320, from 1971, is to the same effect.
    ---

    The sun was sinking behind the mountains, and the shadows were deepening in the woods, when they went on again.
      The date is January 17, T.A. 3019.
    ---

    There was a wide treeless space before them, running in a great circle and bending away on either hand. Beyond it was a deep fosse lost in soft shadow
      A fosse is a ditch or moat (from Old French, from Latin fossa).
    ---

    'Welcome to Caras Galadhon!' he said.
      Tolkien wrote:Caras seems to be an old word for a moated fortress, not found in Sindarin.

      - App. A to 'History of Galadriel and Celeborn', UT p.257.

      Footnote 1 to Appendix F says that Caras Galadhon is one of several placenames probably of Silvan origin, adapted to Sindarin. The Ardalambion site speculates on the possible Silvan origins of Galadhon:
      Does the ending -on of Caras Galadhon indicate genitive plural, cognate with and identical to the corresponding Quenya ending? This would give the name the plausible meaning *"fortress of trees". Galadh "tree" could be Sindarin, but this language has no genitive endings.

    ---

    Very tall they were, and the Lady no less tall than the Lord
      Her mother-name was Nerwen ("man-maiden"), and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor

      - 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn', UT p.229

      Galadriel, "the tallest of all the women of the Eldar of whom tales tell," was said to be man-high, but it is noted "according to the measure of the Dúnedain and the men of old," indicating a height of about six feet four inches.

      - 'Disaster of the Gladden Fields', Appendix on Númenorean Measures, UT p.286


      'Welcome Aragorn son of Arathorn!' he said. 'It is eight and thirty years of the world outside since you came to this land'
      'It came to pass that when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age he returned from perils on the dark confines of Mordor, where Sauron now dwelt again and was busy with evil. He was weary and he wished to go back to Rivendell and rest there for a while ere he journeyed into the far countries; and on his way he came to the borders of Lórien and was admitted to the hidden land by the Lady Galadriel.'

      - Appendix A

      This was the visit where he and Arwen plighted their troth.
    ---

    'Welcome son of Thranduil! Too seldom do my kindred journey hither from the North.'
      The fact that Legolas had not previously been to Lorien (and is even unsure if its inhabitants still dwell in flets these days) has been suggested by some as evidence for Legolas being relatively young, or perhaps a younger son of Thranduil, as it seems a journey that an important prince might be expected to make at some point. On the other hand, it may just show how little contact Lórien had with the outside world, even with their kindred elves in Mirkwood. (eg Haldir omits Mirkwood when he says: "so little faith and trust do we find now in the world beyond Lothlórien, unless maybe in Rivendell")
    ---

    'Nine were to set out: so said the messages.'
      The messengers were presumably the sons of Elrond who were among the scouts sent out from Rivendell after the Council:
      The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return; they had made a great journey, passing down the Silverlode into a strange country, but of their errand they would not speak to any save to Elrond.

    --


    "But had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria again, I would have forbidden you to pass the northern borders, you and all that went with you."
      In one of the manuscripts about Galadriel and Celeborn published in Unfinished Tales, Tolkien wrote:
      Celeborn had no liking for Dwarves of any race (as he showed to Gimli in Lothlórien), and never forgave them for their part in the destruction of Doriath . . .

      The passage goes on to make clear that Galadriel's attitude toward the Dwarves was quite different, and to explain why. See below.
    ---

    And the Dwarf, hearing the names given in his own ancient tongue, looked up and met her eyes; and it seemed to him that he looked suddenly into the heart of an enemy and found there love and understanding.
      In one of the later writings published in Unfinished Tales, Tolkien says that Galadriel's friendly attitude toward the Dwarves dated to the early part of the Second Age, and may have been a matter of deliberate policy, because she saw them as potentially a powerful source of resistance to Sauron; indeed, it is hinted that she settled in Lorien because of its proximity to Moria. UT, pp. 246-47 (U.S. trade paperback).
    ---

    She seemed to be looking inside me and asking what I would do if she gave me the chance of flying back home to the Shire to a nice little hole with - with a bit of garden of my own
      This may be a reference to Rosie Cotton. The 'with - with' seems to be a cover up by Sam. He may have been about to say 'a nice little hole with Rosie Cotton'.
    ---

    One evening Frodo and Sam were walking together in the cool twilight.
      According to Appendix B, the date is February 14, TA 3019 (the 27th day since the arrival of the Fellowship at Caras Galadhon).
    ---

    At the bottom, upon a low pedestal carved like a branching tree, stood a basin of silver, wide and shallow, and beside it stood a silver ewer.
    With water from the stream Galadriel filled the basin....

      It is quite possible, of course, that certain "elements" or conditions of matter had attracted Morgoth's special attention (mainly, unless in the remote past, for reasons of his own plans). For example, all gold (in Middle-earth) seems to have had a specially "evil" trend - but not silver. Water is represented as being almost entirely free of Morgoth.


      Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed
    ---

    "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not clearly understand what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy."
      Tolkien comments on this passage in Letter 155, where he disclaims the implication in this passage that the Elves and the Istari use "real" magic while Sauron deals in illusion - concepts which he labels with the Greek words magia and goeteia, respectively:
      I suppose that, for the purposes of the tale, some would say that there is a latent distinction such as once was called the distinction between magia and goeteia*. Galadriel speaks of the 'deceits of the Enemy'. Well enough, but magia could be, was, held good (per se), and goeteia bad. Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use. Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use. Both sides use both, but with different motives. The supremely bad motive is (for this tale, since it is specially about it) domination of other "free" wills. The Enemy's operations are by no means all goetic deceits, but "magic" that produces real effects in the physical world. But his magia he uses to bulldoze both people and things, and his to terrify and subjugate. Their magia the Elves and Gandalf use (sparingly): a magia, producing real results (like fire in a wet faggot) for specific beneficent purposes. Their goetic effects are entirely artistic and not intended to deceive: they never deceive Elves (but may deceive or bewilder unaware Men) since the difference is to them as clear as the difference to us between fiction, painting, and sculpture, and "life."

      * Greek γοητεία (γόης, sorcerer); the English form Goety is defined in the O.E.D. as 'witchcraft or magic performed by the invocation and employment of evil spirits; necromancy.'

    ---

    "Elrond knew what he was about when he wanted to send Mr. Merry back."
      In fact, while Elrond originally proposed to send both Merry and Pippin back to the Shire, it was Pippin whom he was most reluctant to have as part of the Fellowship:
      " . . . The Shire, I forebode, is not free now from peril; and these two I had thought to send back there as messengers, to do what they could, according to the fashion of their country, to warn the people of their danger. In any case, I judge that the younger of these two, Peregrin Took, should remain. My heart is against his going."

      Book II, ch. 3.
    ---

    'Do you advise me to look?' asked Frodo
    'No,' she said. 'I do not counsel you one way or the other'

      Compare this with Book I Chapter III 'Three is Company':

      'And it is also said,' answered Frodo: 'Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.'
    ---

    Doubt came into Frodo's mind: was this a vision of Gandalf on one of his many lonely journeys long ago, or was it Saruman?
      Presumably Frodo is seeing Gandalf reincarnated and clothed in white; see Bk. III, ch. 5. If so, this is a vision of the future, as according to Appendix B, it was on this same day that Gandalf came back to life on the peak of Celebdil. Gwaihir carried him to Lorien three days later, on February 17, TA 3019.

      If in fact Gandalf is seen on his subsequent journey from Lorien to Fangorn, where he met Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli on March 1, the "long grey road" on which he is traveling is hard locate in terms of ordinary geography. There can hardly have been enough traffic between the two forest lands to keep open a road. Gandalf's statement "Thence by strange roads I came" may be Tolkien's way of acknowledging the mystery without providing a solution.
    ---

    "...Nenya, the Ring of Adamant...."
      Now these were the Three that had last been made, and they possessed the greatest powers. Narya, Nenya and Vilya, they were named, the Rings of Fire, and of Water, and of Air, set with ruby and adamant and sapphire; and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world.


      The Sil: Of the Rings of Power

    ---

    “I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired to ask what you offer. For many long years I had pondered what I should do, should the Great Ring come into my hands….”
      Galadriel’s rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve.


      Letters: Letter 246
    ---

    “I pass the test,” she said. “I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.”
      ... her personal ban [on returning to the Undying Lands] was lifted, in reward for her services against Sauron, and above all for her rejection of the temptation to take the Ring when offered to her.


      Letters: Letter 297
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    Postby wilko185 » Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:43 pm

    Reserved for future use

    </optimism>
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    Postby Aravar » Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:53 am

    She seemed to be looking inside me and asking what I would do if she gave me the chance of flying back home to the Shire to a nice little hole with- with a bit of garden of my own

    This may be a reference to Rosie Cotton. The 'with-with' seems to be a cover up by Sam. He may have been about to say 'anice little hole with Rosie Cotton'

    I'd dearly like to see some Elf-magic Mr Frodo

    For a discussion on what JRRT meant by 'magic' in LOTR see Letters Number 155.

    'Do you advise me to look?' asked Frodo
    'No,' she said. 'I do not counsel you one way or the other'


    Compare this with Book I Chapter III 'Three is Company':

    'And it is also said,' answered Frodo: 'Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.'
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    Postby DrummerGirl » Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:05 pm

    Thanks, wilko! :)

    *DG wishes she had time to contribute, even a little. Say, a short commentary on the history of water-scrying or something.*
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    Postby roaccarcsson » Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:39 pm

    Thank you! Let's see if we can't get this rolling again.

    "But had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria again, I would have forbidden you to pass the northern borders, you and all that went with you."

    In one of the manuscripts about Galadriel and Celeborn published in Unfinished Tales, Tolkien wrote:
    Celeborn had no liking for Dwarves of any race (as he showed to Gimli in Lothlorien), and never forgave them for their part in the destruction of Doriath . . .

    The passage goes on to make clear that Galadriel's attitude toward the Dwarves was quite different, and to explain why. See below.

    "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not clearly understand what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy."

    Tolkien comments on this passage in Letter 155, where he disclaims the implication in this passage that the Elves and the Istari use "real" magic while Sauron deals in illusion - concepts which he labels with the Greek words magia and goeteia, respectively:
    Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use. Both sides use both, but with different motives. The supremely bad motive is (for this tale, since it is specially about it) domination of other "free" wills. The Enemy's operations are by no means all goetic deceits, but "magic" that produces real effects in the physical world. But his magia he uses to bulldoze both people and things, and his to terrify and subjugate. Their magia the Elves and Gandalf use (sparingly): a magia, producing real results (like fire in a wet faggot) for specific beneficent purposes. Their goetic effects are entirely artistic and not intended to deceive: they never deceive Elves (but may deceive or bewilder unaware Men) since the difference is to them as clear as the difference to us between fiction, painting, and sculpture, and "life."
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    Postby wilko185 » Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:04 pm

    [ roac, good to see you :) ]

    'Welcome to Caras Galadhon!' he said.

    Tolkien wrote:Caras seems to be an old word for a moated fortress, not found in Sindarin.

    - App. A to 'History of Galadriel and Celeborn', UT p.257.

    Footnote 1 to Appendix F says that Caras Galadhon is one of several placenames probably of Silvan origin, adapted to Sindarin. The Ardalambion site speculates on the possible Silvan origins of Galadhon:
    Does the ending -on of Caras Galadhon indicate genitive plural, cognate with and identical to the corresponding Quenya ending? This would give the name the plausible meaning *"fortress of trees". Galadh "tree" could be Sindarin, but this language has no genitive endings.
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    Re: The Annotated LOTR - The Mirror of Galadriel

    Postby wilko185 » Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:01 am

    wilko185 wrote:A fosse is a ditch or moat, seemingly the former in this case.

    Tolkien wrote:Caras seems to be an old word for a moated fortress


    I guess I'll defer to Tolkien, it was more of a moat than a ditch :D. I had just never imagined Caras Galadhon having a moat around it, for some reason.
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    Postby Aravar » Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:48 am

    A moat needn't be full of water though. For example the Tower of London has a dry moat, it's far too big to be described as a ditch.

    Edit to add:

    Warwick Castle, the original Kortirion, appears to have a dry moat, although the website, www.warwick-castle.co.uk descirbes it as a ditch.
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    Postby wilko185 » Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:46 pm

    Good point Aravar. The fosse has a "brink", and a bridge, but that doesn't really mean much. I'm not sure what to think.

    ---

    Very tall they were, and the Lady no less tall than the Lord

    Her mother-name was Nerwen ("man-maiden"), and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor

    - 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn', UT p.229

    Galadriel, "the tallest of all the women of the Eldar of whom tales tell," was said to be man-high, but it is noted "according to the measure of the Dúnedain and the men of old," indicating a height of about six feet four inches.

    - 'Disaster of the Gladden Fields', Appendix on Númenorean Measures, UT p.286


    'Welcome Aragorn son of Arathorn!' he said. 'It is eight and thirty years of the world outside since you came to this land'
    'It came to pass that when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age he returned from perils on the dark confines of Mordor, where Sauron now dwelt again and was busy with evil. He was weary and he wished to go back to Rivendell and rest there for a while ere he journeyed into the far countries; and on his way he came to the borders of Lórien and was admitted to the hidden land by the Lady Galadriel.'

    - Appendix A

    This was the visit where he and Arwen plighted their troth.

    'Welcome son of Thranduil! Too seldom do my kindred journey hither from the North.'

    The fact that Legolas had not previously been to Lorien (and is even unsure if its inhabitants still dwell in flets these days) has been suggested by some as evidence for Legolas being relatively young, or perhaps a younger son of Thranduil, as it seems a journey that an important prince might be expected to make at some point. On the other hand, it may just show how little contact Lórien had with the outside world, even with their kindred elves in Mirkwood. (eg Haldir omits Mirkwood when he says: "so little faith and trust do we find now in the world beyond Lothlórien, unless maybe in Rivendell")


    'Nine were to set out: so said the messages.'

    The messengers were presumably the sons of Elrond who were among the scouts sent out from Rivendell after the Council:
    The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return; they had made a great journey, passing down the Silverlode into a strange country, but of their errand they would not speak to any save to Elrond.
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    Postby roaccarcsson » Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:57 pm

    The sun was sinking behind the mountains, and the shadows were deepening in the woods, when they went on again.

    The date is January 17, T.A. 3019.

    Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, the following should be included somewhere:
    Christopher Tolkien wrote:
    There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies "embedded in the traditions"; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings.

    Unfinished Tales prefatory note to Part IV, "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn." In this Part, Christopher Tolkien sets out two versions of the origin of the characters and their role in the events of the First and Second Ages, which directly contradict one another in many respects.

    [Somebody else is invited to summarize what they say . . .]

    Another note to be inserted as Wilko sees fit:

    In the published Letters, Tolkien twice acknowledges suggestions by that the character of Galadriel is influenced by his devotion, as a Catholic, to the Virgin Mary.
    . . . I am a Christian (which can be deduced from my stories), and in fact a Roman Catholic. The latter "fact" cannot perhaps be deduced; though one critic (by letter) asserted that the invocations of Elbereth, and the character of Galadriel as directly described (or through the words of Gimli or Sam) were clearly related to Catholic devotion to Mary.

    Letter 213, dated 1958; Letter 320, from 1971, is to the same effect.

    And the Dwarf, hearing the names given in his own ancient tongue, looked up and met her eyes; and it seemed to him that he looked suddenly into the heart of an enemy and found there love and understanding.

    In one of the later writings published in Unfinished Tales, Tolkien says that Galadriel's friendly attitude toward the Dwarves dated to the early part of the Second Age, and may have been a matter of deliberate policy, because she saw them as potentially a powerful source of resistance to Sauron; indeed, it is hinted that she settled in Lorien because of its proximity to Moria. UT, pp. 246-47 (U.S. trade paperback).
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    Postby Queen_Beruthiel » Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:27 pm

    At the bottom, upon a low pedestal carved like a branching tree, stood a basin of silver, wide and shallow, and beside it stood a silver ewer.
    With water from the stream Galadriel filled the basin....




    It is quite possible, of course, that certain "elements" or conditions of matter had attracted Morgoth's special attention (mainly, unless in the remote past, for reasons of his own plans). For example, all gold (in Middle-earth) seems to have had a specially "evil" trend - but not silver. Water is represented as being almost entirely free of Morgoth.


    Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed
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    Postby MithLuin » Mon Aug 29, 2005 5:14 pm

    Great quote, Queen B! (I should really read that...)

    I think we could not find anything more succinct, nor more direct. But would it be appropriate to also include something about Ulmo, or the River Sirion? I don't want to get carried away, but perhaps something from the Silmarillion, to flesh it out?

    For all seas, lakes, rivers, fountains and springs are in his government; so that the Elves say that the spirit of Ulmo runs in all the veins of the world. ... And Manwe and Ulmo have from the beginning been allied, and in all things have served most faithfully the purpose of Iluvatar. "The Valaquenta"; "The Ainulindale" The Silmarillion


    Never once as they wandered together on long and grievous paths did Turin speak, and he walked as one without wish or purpose, while the year waned and winter drew on over the northern lands. But Gwindor was ever beside him to guard him and guide him; and thus they passed westward over Sirion and came at length to Eithel Ivrin, the springs whence Narog rose beneath the Mountains of Shadow. There Gwindor spoke to Turin, saying: "Awake, Turin son of Hurin Thalion! On Ivrin's lake is endless laughter. She is fed from crystal fountains unfailing, and guarded from defilement by Ulmo, Lord of Waters, who wrought her beauty in ancient days.' Then Turin knelt and drank from that water; and suddenly he cat himself down, and his tears were unloosed at last, and he was healed of his madness. "Of Turin Turambar" The Silmarillion


    This isn't an annotation by itself. It promises to become too large and unwieldy, so I am just throwing this out there to see if anyone would like some sort of expansion. Obviously, much more could be said about water (and silver!) and their connection with "good" in Tolkien's work!
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    Postby wilko185 » Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:46 pm

    DrummerGirl wrote:Thanks, wilko! :)

    *DG wishes she had time to contribute, even a little. Say, a short commentary on the history of water-scrying or something.*


    I hope you find the time :). As Mith says, there is much to say about Galadriel's "magic" in relation to Middle-earth, but there is probably much to say in relation to real-world lore, (I just had a quick look on http://www.alt-tolkien.com/lore.html but couldn't see anything relevant). I don't mind wild speculation, though I may not include it all when I compile the opening post, depending on what others here say about it :).
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    Postby roaccarcsson » Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:21 pm

    On the name "Galadriel":

    In Letter 345, dated 30 November 1972, Tolkien says that "Galadriel" means "Glittering garland." A few months later, he wrote to another reader that
    Galadriel, like all the other names of Elvish persons in The Lord of the Rings, is an invention of my own. It is in Sindarin form (see Appendices E and F) and means "Maiden crowned with gleaming hair." It is a secondary name given her in her youth in the far past because she had long hair which glistened like gold but was also shot with silver. She was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats.

    Letter 348, dated 6 March 1973.
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    Postby roaccarcsson » Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:41 pm

    "Elrond knew what he was about when he wanted to send Mr. Merry back."

    In fact, while Elrond originally proposed to send both Merry and Pippin back to the Shire, it was Pippin whom he was most reluctant to have as part of the Fellowship:
    " . . . The Shire, I forebode, is not free now from peril; and these two I had thought to send back there as messengers, to do what they could, according to the fashion of their country, to warn the people of their danger. In any case, I judge that the younger of these two, Peregrin Took, should remain. My heart is against his going."

    Book II, ch. 3.
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    Postby Queen_Beruthiel » Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:38 pm

    “I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired to ask what you offer. For many long years I had pondered what I should do, should the Great Ring come into my hands….”

    Galadriel’s rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve.


    Letters: Letter 246

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    “I pass the test,” she said. “I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.”

    ... her personal ban [on returning to the Undying Lands] was lifted, in reward for her services against Sauron, and above all for her rejection of the temptation to take the Ring when offered to her.


    Letters: Letter 297
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    Postby roaccarcsson » Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:43 pm

    One evening Frodo and Sam were walking together in the cool twilight.

    According to Appendix B, the date is February 14, TA 3019 (the 27th day since the arrival of the Fellowship at Caras Galadhon).

    Doubt came into Frodo's mind: was this a vision of Gandalf on one of his many lonely journeys long ago, or was it Saruman?

    Presumably Frodo is seeing Gandalf reincarnated and clothed in white; see Bk. III, ch. 5. If so, this is a vision of the future, as according to Appendix B, it was on this same day that Gandalf came back to life on the peak of Celebdil. Gwaihir carried him to Lorien three days later, on February 17, TA 3019.

    If in fact Gandalf is seen on his subsequent journey from Lorien to Fangorn, where he met Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli on March 1, the "long grey road" on which he is traveling is hard locate in terms of ordinary geography. There can hardly have been enough traffic between the two forest lands to keep open a road. Gandalf's statement "Thence by strange roads I came" may be Tolkien's way of acknowledging the mystery without providing a solution.
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    Postby Queen_Beruthiel » Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:17 pm

    "...Nenya, the Ring of Adamant...."

    Now these were the Three that had last been made, and they possessed the greatest powers. Narya, Nenya and Vilya, they were named, the Rings of Fire, and of Water, and of Air, set with ruby and adamant and sapphire; and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world.


    The Sil: Of the Rings of Power[/quote]
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    Postby wilko185 » Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:05 pm

    MithLuin wrote: Obviously, much more could be said about water (and silver!) and their connection with "good" in Tolkien's work!


    Maybe that would be worth a thread, as there doesn't seem to be one on the topic?

    ----

    'Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla'

    Quotes from Ardalambion:
      Kibil-nâla "Silverlode" (LotR1/II ch. 3), the river Celebrant. The separate elements kibil, nâla (q.v.) are discussed in TI:174, 175. Curiously, the Khuzdul name of this river is given as Zigilnâd in PM:279, 286. PM:275 indicates that Tolkien in one draft for a LotR appendix used the name Kibil-nâla to refer to the Mirrormere, but changed it to Kheled-zâram, the name used in the main text of LotR. Christopher Tolkien dismisses this as a "slip without significance" (PM:286).


      kheled "glass" in Kheled-zâram "Mirrormere", lit. "glasslake"
    ---

    'together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.'

    Tolkien also describes real-world history (at least as seen through a Catholic perspective) as a "long defeat":
    Actually I am a Christian, and indeed a Roman Catholic, so that I do not expect 'history' to be anything but a 'long defeat' – though it contains (and in a legend may contain more clearly and movingly) some samples or glimpses of final victory.

    - Letter #195, 1956

    This quote has been much commented upon, for example:
    http://www.catholiceducation.org/articl ... l0127.html
    http://www.ewtn.com/library/HUMANITY/JRRTOLK.HTM

    ---

    'It need not be said that I refused to listen. The Men of Minas Tirith are true to their word.'

    cf. Faramir, Bk4, ch. 5: 'We are truth-speakers, we men of Gondor. We boast seldom, and then perform, or die in the attempt.'

    ---
    edit:

    'No, Lady,' he answered. 'To tell you the truth, I wondered what you were talking about. I saw a star through your finger.'

    This line contains a typo, Tolkien's manuscript more sensibly has Sam say 'I saw a star through your fingers' (footnote 34 to ch.13 HoME 7).
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